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Irish Economist Marc Coleman has defended Ireland’s financial reputation after the country’s economy was attacked by Labour’s Holyrood leader Iain Gray (pictured) on Thursday at First Ministers Questions.

Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland Mr Coleman described the comments made by Gray, who had described Ireland’s economy as being “on the brink of collapse”, as politically motivated and lacking credibility.

Iain Gray had questioned the ability of Scots to govern themselves by attacking Ireland whose economy he said was “on the brink of collapse” and “teetering” on the edge.  The Labour group leader also claimed that an independent Scotland could not have coped with the banking crisis given that Scottish banks were significantly larger than Ireland’s.

Mr Coleman rubbished the 'brink of collapse' claim by pointing out that Ireland’s economy is stable with retail sales growing and unemployment falling.  Mr Coleman pointed out that as far as debt was concerned Ireland is in roughly the same debt position as the UK.

Mr Coleman, who spoke warmly of “our cousins in Scotland”, went further and explained that Ireland is the second highest income country in the EU and has a GDP per capita that is in fact higher than the UK and 30% higher than the EU average.  Mr Coleman also suggested that 10 years of Labour rule had not been good for Scotland.

Mr Coleman said: “I understand that Iain Gray is a Labour party politician ....

“... ten years of Labour leadership has left Scotland with a GDP per capita that is significantly lower than the EU average.

“Perhaps the credibility of that remark [Ireland ‘on the brink of collapse’] should be filtered through that simple fact.”

Mr Coleman also went on to explain that this week’s forecast for Ireland was a “worst case scenario” and that Ireland, unlike the UK, had a reserve pension fund of £20 billion that could be called upon. 

The comments by Iain Gray echo similar remarks made by ex Secretary of State Jim Murphy who in November 2008 described Ireland as being part of an ‘arc of insolvency’ along with Norway and Iceland.  Then the Labour MP’s comments provoked an angry response from each of the nations including one from Bjarne Lindstrøm the Norwegian Ambassador who sent a letter rebuking both Mr Murphy and media reports.

Hear Marc Coleman’s full interview here:

Oil Fund
In the same parliamentary session Iain Gray also questioned the viability of a Scottish oil fund.  However the Labour group leader’s understanding of how Norway built up her own fund had to be corrected by First Minister Alex Salmond after Mr Gray wrongly stated that Norway’s fund had been due entirely to state oil company Statoil.

Norway has been protected from the effects of the banking crisis by an oil fund currently sitting at almost £300 billion and growing.  Norwegian Finance Minister Sigbjørn Johnsen recently said of the fund: “It’s kind of like a dream.  The size of the fund exceeds the expectations of most of us.” Good husbandry of her natural resources has given the Norwegians an extremely high standard of living and future generations will be able to benefit from the discovery of oil.

This is in contrast to Scotland who will find her grant from Westminster savagely cut, this year and beyond, as the UK braces itself for the effects of dealing with the deficit left behind by Labour.

The SNP recently repeated their calls for an oil fund after new discoveries were made in the North Sea, one of which 'Catcher' is estimated to hold around 300 million barrels of oil.

In a recent BBC interview Nobel Prize winning economist Professor Josef Stiglitz accused successive UK governments of having “squandered” North Sea oil wealth and claimed that without an oil fund future generations of Scots could be left impoverished.

The interview with Professor Stiglitz.

Comments  

 
# ahumscottish2 2010-10-03 09:05
Good on Mr Coleman,
Fair and straight to the pont it has been Labour that damaged Scotland over the last 13 years in charge. I don't think Mr Gray will be visiting Ireland anytime soon.
I shocked that BBC Radio Scotland did not cut Mr Coleman off as this damages their stance on Scotland.
 
 
# enneffess 2010-10-03 09:12
Much as I would prefer to swallow hot coals, I have to agree with Gray's fundamental point - the Irish economy is sitting on the edge. And they do not have any oil to help them. Coleman's remark (I understand that Iain Gray is a Labour party politician) indicates that he has likely been briefed by the SNP, and not speaking as a neutral or member of the Irish government.

Gray is obviously making an attack on the "Arc of Prosperity", but he made a mistake by referring to the Norwegian oil fund.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2010-10-03 09:47
Your point seems to be that Marc Coleman would not have criticised Labour without direction from the SNP.

Iain Gray criticised the Irish economy and now an Irish economist is criticising Labour's economic record.

What's this got to do with the SNP?

People are quite capable of criticising Labour on their own without SNP prodding.
 
 
# truth 2010-10-03 12:06
I tend to agree with GK, NFS.

It is clear to anyone, that Labour have been in government in the UK are responsible for our bankruptcy. He is merely aligning Iain Gray with that.

He takes the stance that the best form of defence is attack, and on this Labour have an achilles heel.
 
 
# west_lothian_questioner 2010-10-03 13:59
Marc Coleman said, "I understand that he (Elmer) is a Labour party politician..." I like to imagine that he held some words back and that his train of thought would have continued, ".. which explains why he's slaverin such a load of sh*t so much of the time." His following remarks about Labour's failures over the last decade implied that he is perfectly well aware that Elmer & co aren't up to running a bath, never mind a national economy.

I don't think it takes an SNP briefing for any intelligent person to see through the gossamer thin arguments of NorthBrit Labour.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2010-10-03 16:35
I also agree with Grassy Knowlington and truth above.

Your comment regarding Coleman being briefed by the SNP is pure fantasy -with NO facts to back your assertion up. One wee look at the Scottish Parliament website and you know what party Iain Gray is from.

Iain Gray makes the mistake of forgetting there are many with Irish roots over here in Scotland.

Not sure what makes you want to defend such crass stupidity from Labour, enneffess.
 
 
# ahumscottish2 2010-10-03 09:19
Hi enneffess,

Did you listen to the radio broadcast, Mr Coleman highlighted the difference between economy and bank problems their economy is growing, sales etc but he acknowledges the bank issues therefore the Grayman was well off the mark, if he stated these individually in Hollyrood then there might be a reason to agree with him.
 
 
# hektorsmum 2010-10-03 09:49
Well, as the Irish are not burdened by a need to show the world how to do things, to police the world without the wherewithal to do so. We will see who is out of recession first.
I also do not see the Irish rushing back to Mother England to protect them.
I am ashamed of those people in the BBC who are so tribal that they cannot see the rights and wrongs of the situation, and just sit and crow at others misfortune. So much for investigative Journalism.
 
 
# Bugger the Panda 2010-10-03 10:09
Quoting hektorsmum:
W
I am ashamed of those people in the BBC who are so tribal that they cannot see the rights and wrongs of the situation, and just sit and crow at others misfortune. So much for investigative Journalism.



I used to think that too Hektorsmum but the breadth and co-ordination of this bias is way beyond what Labour could do successfully, especially the North Britishire gang.

So, who is doing it?

The BBC is an organ of the British State, despite what is says in its Charter etc. The personnel hired by the BBC were being vetted by the Security Services as we can see by recent FOI revelations although that was "wound down."

I think it has been rewound up and the Civil Service is pulling away at strings to maintain the last vestiges of their blueprint for the British Empire which was an economic parasite, in the Roman model, designed to incorporate quislings and collaborators into ruling the colonies for honorary citizenship in Mother Rome.

With no real external Empire it is turning on itself, think of Ireland, north and south, and is sucking the lifeblood out of Scotland for as long as it can to maintain the City and its hinterland.

I think if you read this simple analysis into all that the unionist parties do and how the levers of power are manipulated it becomes a little more obvious.


When Scotland goes they will turn on Wales and N England as they have no other model to follow. Then the SE of England will be regionalised into a federation of the European regions?
 
 
# hektorsmum 2010-10-04 12:14
I thank you for your explanation which covers much of what I think. I have posted somewhere else that I think that one of the reasons that the Establishment is happy for the Scots to vote Labour, is that it gives them the stupid idea that they are different from the English in that they do not vote for the Tories. The problem is that they are both seen as the safe pair of hands for the Establishment. Neither will change anything at least not too drastically, whilst the Nationalist Parties are not controllable. Therefore rubbish them and keep the others in charge. Remember 2007 was never meant to happen and they will do anything they can so that it doesn't happen again.
 
 
# colin8652 2010-10-03 09:53
Above all this episode has displayed grey's naivety and unsuitability as a potential leader of Scotland. He obviously gave no thought what so ever to the consequences of disrespecting another nation. He obviously thought that no one outside Scotland would ever hear his comments. So he thought he could say whatever he liked. Very naive, very stupid. Sad thing is that unless something drastic happens between now and May this buffoon might become first minister. a frightening thought.
 
 
# ahumscottish2 2010-10-03 09:58
Hi all,

Regarding Hektorsmum, I agree with you but don't you think it is the typical mindset of a lot of Scots or should I say the people of Scotland we can shout and moan with the best we put a lot of things down may be to feel better especially our own Country we love to blame others rather than take things in our own hands and make it better. Is this what being run by another Country has done to the people.
As for Mr Coleman I do not think he is/has been prepped by the SNP he is simply standing up for his Country something very few people do (Labour, Lid-dems and Tories party members) who would rather take orders from Westminster.
 
 
# hektorsmum 2010-10-04 12:22
Well Ahumscottish2, I am a Scot but I had a Great Granddad who came over from Donegal. I think that there are Scots who like to put people down, just like there are throughout the world. Scots are not that different from the rest of Humanity. I do think they should be but they are not.
My argument is that the so called journalists on the Beeb are supposed to be professional and should behave themselves better.
 
 
# EdinScot 2010-10-03 10:08
Gray and his Labour party should remember that people in glass houses should never throw stones. The UK last time i looked is in a total mess financially and economically caused by his very own Labour party, but in true British fashion, instead of concentrating in getting their own house in order, they start meddling in other nation' affairs, a big no no.

He embarrasses himself, his party and by default Scotland by these desperate attacks on Ireland, a close friend and neighbour to Scotland. Maybe thats his intention to do damage to Scotland to create as much disharmony as possible internationally towards us. His party will stop at nothing to hold back this country.

All his precious union has in store for Scotland is severe cuts under a Westminster unionist watch. Time for Scotland, methinks. to be a normal independent nation controlling our own affairs, just like the proud Republic of Ireland.
 
 
# cadgers 2010-10-03 10:13
enneffess say "And they do not have any oil to help them"

Neither do the Scottish people!! and if the Graymans bunch of numpties (allowed Ed?) get in in May we never shall.
 
 
# Diabloandco 2010-10-03 10:18
I see that great fan of Mr Salmond ,Mr Cochrane and his ignorant cohorts( kept in ignorance by the media) are having a field day in the Telegraph.
Mind you , one "cohort" is eager for Scotland to gain independence - not for the right reason - but independence all the same.
Don't care how we get there but soon ,please.
 
 
# enneffess 2010-10-03 10:22
OK, perhaps he hasn't been briefed by the SNP. But the Irish economy does have a lot of problems that are not going to go away. Christ, I'm not trying to support Gray, but I'll bet he is highlighting the problems in Ireland to attack Salmond. Expect a similar attack on Iceland very soon.

The media will quite happily report it as well, and almost certainly there will be reminders of Salmond's "Arc or Prosperity" and how two members of the Arc have seen their economies collapse.

That's the point I'm getting at.
 
 
# rodmac 2010-10-03 11:10
And those within the " Arc of Prosperity" are still in a better shape than the UK!!
With Norway streets ahead of everybody else.

Which makes Labours attacks really stupid indeed!!!
But seeing as we have such a rampantly corrupt media, they think with some justification that they can get away with whatever they like,and not be held up for examination. Unfortunately, that is the one thing Labour is right about!!
 
 
# Robert Louis 2010-10-03 16:41
QUOTE from enneffess : "Christ, I'm not trying to support Gray"

What can I say, it certainly sounded like it.


It still does.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 14:56
I said that very thing Robert when I first came to this site; there are Labour Unionists 'disguising' themselves as SNP followers, but it's always easy to notice them when they say 'SNP aren't doing enough'; this faux-pax by Gray has absolutely nothing to do with SNP.

Gray is making an utter fool of himself, and his 'disguised followers' are desperately trying to maintain damage limitation by allying the focus of attack at the SNP.
 
 
# Diabloandco 2010-10-03 10:28
Does anyone remember the sneering by the erstwhile sec of state for Scotland and the response by Mr Coleman then/

A taste ,

"The answer to that question depends on how confident you are in yourself. Scotland's genius has given the world the television, the telephone, penicillin, much modern industrial practice and, of course, the science of economics.

The idea that this nation cannot successfully manage its economic interdependency with the rest of the world is, to me, laughable. Far from there being an "arc of insolvency", the real arc here is an "arc of indifference", encompassing Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Putting Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on a viable footing – letting them manage their economies – would not, of course, be in the political interest of politicians like Mr Murphy, who depend for their career advancement on the supplication and marginalisation of Scotland and Wales to Westminster.

But it would be right for the people. As for Ireland's recession, Mr Murphy is, again, clueless. After 15 years of record-busting growth, some froth is being blown off the Guinness."
 
 
# scotnotbrit 2010-10-03 10:57
people keep talking about the "Scottish economy" as if Scotland was a real country with the control of the financial levers required to make a national state responsible for its own "economy"
we are a province of england , we cannot buy a packet of paper tissues without their say so ,
the pretence that such a country as Scotland exists , in any meaningful way , misunderstands the nature of the unitary brit-state .
the cultural ghost that is all that is left of Mither Scotland , is dragged from her lair , wrapped in a tartan shawl , and made to march along the battlements of their barracks in a show of brit-jockery , beneath the militarist squeal of their diddy-men pipes , no-one can hear her groan .
the "Scottish" economy ? how doea that work ?
like as in , so many other things they buy your acquiescence with a wheen of tartan ribbons ( made in china )
 
 
# Robabody 2010-10-03 12:00
"with a wheen of tartan ribbons ( made in china )" Love it! Coming as I do from tat and tramrail city
 
 
# Keep UTG 2010-10-03 11:04
Mr Coleman said: “I understand that Iain Gray is a Labour party politician ....

“... ten years of Labour leadership has left Scotland with a GDP per capita that is significantly lower than the EU average.

That is the difference,and as long as we stay in this Union it will always be.
 
 
# rgweir 2010-10-03 11:22
I would suggest that the news of the tories backing the snp if they were returned as a minority govt would be bad news for the snp.
remember the GE a few months ago,labour in scotland were telling the voters to vote labour to keep the tories ou.
In may labour would try the same tactict again telling the people of scotland that if they vote in an snp govt they would end up with tory policies.
i dont mean to be disrespectful but the average voter in scotland would again believe it to be the case,with the help of the record and to some extent the scotsman.
i have been involved in politics in scotland for abour forty years,but i have never seen so much bias in the msm(mainly bbcthan i have seen since devolution.
 
 
# ubinworryinmasheep 2010-10-03 11:49
Aye but they haven't backed the SNP in a lot recently. They helped stop the minimum pricing and obviously do not want independence. I think they helped bury LIT too. I dont think the SNP can be compared to the Tories, even by a desperate Labour party and I think the Lib Dems will have to watch what they say totally from now on.
 
 
# enneffess 2010-10-03 13:17
What also helps is that the SNP have been the Scottish Government in their own right, without any assistance from other parties. The "Vote SNP Get Tory" argument won't work.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 14:59
rgweir, a simple statement from Alex'Salmond saying his SNP party would NOT form a coalition, nor looking to accept support with any Unionist party would sort the problem of 'split voting'.
 
 
# velofello 2010-10-03 11:38
As commented above, you don't have to be born in Scotland to be a Scot, and so being born in Scotland doesn't necessarily make you a Scot. And so I regard Baillie, Gray, Murphy and Baker - as they actively speak and act against the interests of Scotland, as non-Scots -Brits, English, whatever, but not Scots.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 15:03
velofello, Observer from the scudzmun thinks the opposite; don'tcha just luv the ironies of Labour implosion!
 
 
# J Wil 2010-10-03 12:05
It's not the first time the Labour Party in Scotland has had a go at Ireland. Jim Murphy did the same thing on a regular basis, particularly in Scottish Questions. His remarks also had repercussions from Irish Republican politicians. Labour think they are talking to a closed society when they try to fool Scots into always backing them. They do not seem to get the message that they are insulting a foreign country from which the ancestors of many settled Scots came. Also, quite a large proportion of UK exports go to Ireland so they are an integral part of the British economy.

I think that Labour are playing with fire. If they suffer the consequences then it is more than they deserve.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2010-10-03 12:43
Just to comment on the Norwegian economy, I was fortunate to be there last year and witnesed first hand how they were doing. At the start of the so called global financial crisis some Norwegian companies started to lay people off, but within a matter of weeks, they realised that they were not being affected the same way and then started to re-emply the people they just laid off!. Fact is Norway hasnt had a recession, not even a whiff of it. I fund my short stay very enlightening.Norwegians are very affluent. Would recomend a visit to Norway for anyone who wants to see what a country thats enjoys its own resources to the max.
Only downside though to any visitor is the price of beer!, But my Norwegian hosts sid that they were used to that and accepted as life was indeed good in Norway (they are a proud lot b the way, noticed that practically every house has a penant version of te Norwegian flag flying!)
 
 
# Tinyzeitgeist 2010-10-03 13:03
Ian Gray's utterances on the Irish economy speaks volumes. As a so called 'labour' politician who would claim to be champion of the poor and disposessed, he fails to speak of the real problem that now threatens Ireland and indeed the UK - the economic system itself. Instead of grandstanding on the problems Ireland has he should be attacking the banking and financial interests that have engineered this situation. Indeed, I lay blame at the feet of all our politicians for failing to tackle this elephant in the room. Instead they squabble over who is going to make the most cuts to our civic governance. It seems that all of them are now in thrall to vested financial interests, and now appear unable or unwilling to take on these vested interests. All of them, the SNP included appear feart to speak out against the criminal bankster cartels that now threaten us from afar - the IMF for example. We are being carefully groomed to accept the economic shock therapy that is to be visited upon us, its all cuts, cuts and more cuts. It is time that our representatives stood up and represented us, the people rather than the small vested interest of the banking and corporate elite.
 
 
# Hearthammer 2010-10-04 08:59
I agree. As a person who lived in Ireland for 13 years and only came back to Scotland 15 months ago, I feel I'm in a good position to comment on the Irish woes.

The problems in Ireland stem from 2001 and the reelection of Bertie Ahern's FF government. There were signs on the horizon that all was not well with the financial situation but the Irish people contined to support FF despite many political and financial commentators pointing out that there was trouble on the horizon. A lot of Ireland's troubles arose out of the housing bubble. When I first went to Ireland 1996, there were some small, little, miners rows type houses near Phoenix #park that the owners couldn't even give away! By 1999, they were selling for hundreds of thousands of pounds! The housing bubble formed within a couple of years and house, and therefore land, prices kept increasing. 2.2 million euros for a two bedroom in Dalkey, for god's sake!

Capitalism is cyclical and people who ignore that fact, deserve to be burnt as do those who buy at the top of the cycle.

Also problematical was the stance of Anglo Irish Bank, AIB and other banks. I won't go into the myriad of semi crooked deals that were taken on board by Anglo, but suffice to say that multi million, low interest loans were awarded to board members and now the working man is having to pick up the tab. There also seems to be a reluctance on the part of government to call in those loans in case the country id "undermined!" The country and the banking system is already undermined for God's sake!

We would do well to look at our own banks and our regulators to make sure the same doesn't happen here.

To finish off, the problems arose out of the banks falling over each other to lend to property specualtors who fed off the property boom, the regulators failing to regualte sufficiently and a government determined to "ride out the storm" whatever it cost the country.

While Ireland still has a larger GDP than the UK, it lso has a growing underclass that could easily dissolve into anarchy at any time. Look out for a substantially raised voting level for Sinn Fein at the next election.

Ireland has a lot to answer for but it also has a lot to be proud of. To crticise Ireland the way Grey did was just to show ignorance. We should earn from Ireland and try to emulate the good points of their policies and ignore the bad ones.
 
 
# Arraniki 2010-10-03 14:05
Seconded, Old Smokey. Norway is an inspiring example for Scotland.
A thoroughly modern democracy that has transformed its economy and infrastructure over the last 40 years.

Lived and worked there just pre-oil but have returned at regular intervals over the years. The contrast with Scotland is quite honestly stark.
After 40 years we are still playing catch up in almost every sphere of social, cultural and economic life.

And why? Ask any Norwegian or an enviable Swede. Norway has used its oil wealth to turn itself into the best country in the world to live in.*
Crucially and sensibly it has established an ever growing oil fund to sustain a strong economy for generations to come.
Of course, without independence things would have been very different.

Norway would probably be in the same situation as Scotland is today.
Quite a thought.

Norway has again been rated as the best country in the world to live in on the United Nations Development Index. All the Nordic countries are found among the top 20 nations on the ranking list. Sweden is 7th, Finland 12th and Denmark 16th.
The ranking among the 182 nations is based on life expectancy, level of education, and gross national product (GNP) per inhabitant.
(NRK/Press release)
 
 
# Arraniki 2010-10-03 14:10
Easy to get there but disappointed that the enjoyable sea crossing from Newcastle is no longer an option.

You can read Norwegian News in English here:

www.norwaypost.no/

theforeigner.no/
 
 
# hektorsmum 2010-10-04 12:29
I would like to see every person taken over the North Sea to Norway and shown what could be. It might do some good.
 
 
# Barontorc 2010-10-03 14:55
You may wonder who has the power to help Scotland or indeed who has the intent to keep us in thrawl to the bigger brother - for one example, look no further than the Blinderberg Group, set-up in the post war years by none other than Dennis Healey to control and "foster" world-wide development.

See this for what it is, benevolent or not, because in Scotland's terms we are up against a social policy machine that dislikes disruption and instability or anything other than their cosily and cynically agreed prescription for world development.

Look into this manipulative association of power brokers and understand some of the levers that are dedicated to perpetuate the attitudes we are encountering through the MSM and BBC, FOX News and all that is SKY, et al.

"The Blinderberg Group"
The Bilderberg Group or Bilderberg conference is an unofficial annual invitation-only conference of around 130 guests, most of whom are persons of influence in the fields of business, media, and politics.

The original intention of the Bilderberg Group was to further the understanding between Western Europe and North America through informal meetings between powerful individuals. Each year, a "steering committee" devises a selected invitation list with a maximum of 100 names. Invitations are only extended to residents of Europe and North America. The location of their annual meeting is not secret, but the public and press are strictly kept at distance by police force and private security guards. Although the agenda and list of participants are openly available to the public meanwhile - mainly in the internet and posted there by outsiders - whose sources and reliability are not known � it is not clear that such details are disclosed by the group itself. Also the contents of the meetings are kept secret and attendees pledge not to divulge what was discussed.
The group's stated justification for secrecy is that it enables people to speak freely without the need to carefully consider how every word might be interpreted by the mass media

Attendees of Bilderberg include central bankers, defense experts, mass media press barons, government ministers, prime ministers, royalty, international financiers and political leaders from Europe and North America.
Some of the Western world's leading financiers and foreign policy strategists attend Bilderberg. Donald Rumsfeld is an active Bilderberger, as is Peter Sutherland from Ireland, a former European Union commissioner and chairman of Goldman Sachs and of British Petroleum. Rumsfeld and Sutherland served together in 2000 on the board of the Swedish/Swiss energy company ABB. Former U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary and current World Bank head Paul Wolfowitz is also a member, as is Roger Boothe, Jr. The group's current chairman is Etienne Davignon, the Belgian businessman and politician.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 15:10
Barontorc, yer pal Ian Hamilton wants tae storm the barricades again wi' minutemen. Are ye' goin tae join him again?

As far as Bilderberg are concerned, where have you been hiding? They have now 'outed' themselves as the Marxists that write the neo-communist manifesto's for western governments.

One major problem though, they 'controlled' the financial collapse so that they would gain more 'leverage' on those Western governments, but now it's backfired with countries like Germany France and Greece all rioting openly in the streets; the people are defying becoming these Marxists commodities. They didn't expect that!

germany has more than 600,000 neo-nazi's running amok in Germany right now. Holland has Geerst Wilder shouting from the rooftops about 'anti-immigration' policies. The iit is going to hit the fan.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 20:38
Hey Barontorc, I just pulled up your last 'riposte'; "# Barontorc 2010-09-27 17:46
allymax - true to form, you haven't a clue who you are talking to, but sadly immediately berate me for offering you some constructive advice. Keep you're extreme views on me and others to yourself and make like a team player, or you will learn nothing."

You offer me some advice? I don't remember asking for it.

I immediately attack you? it wasn't me that replied to you, it was you that 'attacked' me! Look it up pal.

Extreme views? You obviously don't know what you're talking about; and there-in lays the difference, I do.

Do you also know what I 'will', should, and want to 'learn'? Are you God?

Well, if ye'r no' God, yu know what ye can dae wi' yer advice; don't ever try talking down to me, you can't pull it off.
 
 
# oldnat 2010-10-03 16:15
Useful article on Ireland in the Independent.

independent.co.uk/.../...

The scale of the support the country has had to marshal to cover its banking system's debts will strain its finances but it should grow solidly through the next phase of the global economic cycle, cover its debts and give a rising standard of living to its people.

Those who want to be able to counter Labour's arguments (and they ARE going to use Ireland to suggest that Scotland couldn't be independent) will find Hamish McRae's points useful.
 
 
# velofello 2010-10-03 17:14
Well done barontorc - Mandelson,Blair ?
Blair's period of atonement and then joining the Roman Catholic Church, and then ambassador of something, and then making lots of money? Keep digging Barontorc!
And to change of topic - Shouldn't Ian Gray be encouraged to speak out?
He denigrates Ireland;
Proposes raising council tax;
Declares that the poor (bas..rds), they vote for Labour.
And what he hasn't said, yet - we have in Scotland, after 13 years of Labour rule, children living in poverty - seed corn of the next Labour voting generation?
 
 
# birnie 2010-10-03 17:18
Having just read Alan Cochrane's rubbish on Gray's performance, I have posted a comment on the Telegraph site recommending that readers there consult newsnetscotland for a full analysis.
 
 
# ScotlandUnspun 2010-10-03 18:59
I'd like to agree with and defend enneffness. Really, I don't want to see Newsnet Scotland becoming a loyalty issue where you have to say things in a certain way or else your one of them. Newsnet should be about creating a real debate rather than the garbage that gets paraded as debate in other places..

This Irish economist, to me, is wrong. I think that Ireland really is an a really bad situation. The point that's not making it out here is that Britain is even worse.

There´s no reason why Ireland or Britain should be bailing out private banks and their investors - they lost their money and they should take the hit instead of passing their debts on to the public purse. They gambled, they lost - that should be the end of the story.

Why anyone should be taking on the banks debts is simply down to propaganda.

People, if we don't tell the banks where to go, Britain and many EU countries are going to go through a total nightmare of austerity cuts. Those cuts are going to be so severe that no-one will be able to recognise Britain anymore. It will not be in the G20 anymore.

That's the real story and it's even worse for Labour because they got Britain into this mess..
 
 
# oldnat 2010-10-03 19:14
There's the moral argument against bailing out those who invested in bank bonds and shares. It's clearly unassailable.

However, the reason that all countries did exactly that is because the reality of western capitalism, is that power actually lies with those who own (guess what) capital!

The practical consequences for any country that allowed a default to take place would be dire. Cuba is a fascinating place and it is totally unfair that it should have been made an international pariah in economic terms. But the reality is what we see there.

Interestingly, the world's most successful new capitalist (albeit state capitalism) is moving to the rescue, now that China has developed its own version of the Marshall Plan.

bbc.co.uk/.../...

The Chinese Premier, Wen Jiabao, has said that China will continue to invest in European markets, despite the debt problems affecting many eurozone countries.......
The pledge from the Chinese premier that China would continue to invest its reserves in European markets - now and in the future - was an important signal, the German chancellor said, that China had confidence in the euro.
That confidence has been shaken by the European sovereign debt crisis.
Europe is a key export market for Chinese manufacturers. They are concerned that Europe's problems could reduce demand for their goods, just as their own businesses start to recover.


The Chinese are prepared to underwrite the West ......and we will forever be in their debt, as opposed to the Americans to whom we have been since 1945.
 
 
# ScotlandUnspun 2010-10-03 19:27
Iceland just told the banks to blow town too. There are more political parties in in Greece and Latvia who are advocating repudiation. The problem is that the banks debts are so massive that they won't be able to be repaid. It therefore becomes essential that repudiation becomes a political norm and I think it soon will as Europe, US and Britain buckles under the wait of debt and more people end up in poverty and homeless.

I think we are heading for radical times and the bankers are going to be facing their ´french revolution´mome nt. Already, top US bankers have the same protection as US presidents..

When repudiation starts like it has in Iceland you will not be able to stop it nomatte how the captured media tries to contain it..

Last point, it´s really something reading Newsnet - these guys actually come across as the rabbid fanatics they are.
 
 
# oldnat 2010-10-03 22:56
Iceland didn't do that. They did try to repudiate foreign creditors, and that resulted in the krona suffering a massive devaluation as the financial markets (chief terrorist attacker one A Darling MP) exacted their revenge.

If debt repudiation did become the norm, then China would demonstrate just how powerful capitalism is - especially when it is state capitalism.
 
 
# ScotlandUnspun 2010-10-04 06:49
oldnat,
The krona went down because the crisis hit and it had been epculated on. It was quickly sold after irrational exuberance. They were set up. Icelanders did then try to take their savings out but Brown and Darling stopped them using terrorist laws.
After that British and Dutch banks backed by the EU tried to get the Icelanders to take the wrap through bailouts but in the referendum the people voted against the bailout.

The repudiation happened long after the Krona crashed.

As for China, that's not a bank bail out of fraudulantly originated loans - that's government bonds. A different story.

However, if the US wanted it could easily rule that the bonds are not transferrable or worthless and there's nothing China could do about it except not lend it any more money.

In the end, currencies are all being diluted anyway so the debts aren't going to be paid back - it's just a question of who buys all the natural resources up while fiat currency still has SOME value..
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 16:30
Scotlandunspun, you don't appear to be reading the world financial news.

China are investing heavily in European states and the 'eurozone', simply to 'to' undermine the dollar; the dollar is crashing right at this moment 'because' China is forcing it down!

China is working with the mindset that it's much more fortuitous to undermine the US dollar, than it is to demand back/sell off the US bonds China has. You need to get up earlier in the morning Alex to 'figure out' what is really happening in the world.

You appear to be 'ordering' your arguments from an honourable perspective, when the enemy (Westminster, Unionists, Labour propaganda, Labour disguised followers on here), don't play honourable.

The debts WILL be 'paid back', those debts 'defaulted on' will be traded as part of 'other' treaties.

Switch on buddy.

One more thing, Gordon Brown 'sold' 350 billion quid's worth of UK gold to the E.U. just before he was booted oot o' office; that gold is now valued at 1.3 trillion, more than UK's debt.

Why aren't you 'defending' that super hero?

You also said, "I'd like to agree with and defend enneffness. Really, I don't want to see Newsnet Scotland becoming a loyalty issue where you have to say things in a certain way or else your one of them. Newsnet should be about creating a real debate rather than the garbage that gets paraded as debate in other places.."

In this process, by jumping in to 'defend' another poster, you yourself have descended to the 'silo-ing' level you are attempting to accuse others of!

How very naive super hero. I presume you too agree you should now agree and defend those devious posters that post only to lay blame at the SNP, when in fact SNP has nothing to do with the article; it's all about Ian Gray's imbecility.
 
 
# ScotlandUnspun 2010-10-04 16:57
Hi Allymax,
I think that China is buying whatever it can before the dollar collapses. The $ is collapsing because the Fed is printing shed-loads more money and US investors are fleeing to safe-havens and mistakenly believe the Euro to be one.

The Chinese see things in many shades of grey. Read confuscious before even thinking about imagining what they're up to. They prefer a slow, certain kill to a fast, dangerous kill - you can be sure of that.

If you want to know about an attack on the dollar it's actually coming from the gold and silver vigilanties.

Go get clued up on confuscious, the COMEX, the London Bullion Market Association and the issues of how keeping the price of precious metals down has propped up the currency markets. Once you realise that leverage in the metals has been used to hold up currencies and that that suppression is now being challenged by the world's billionaires then come back and give me some more ideas.

Ancient Chinese proveb say: "Do not anxiously expect what is not yet come; do not vainly regret what is already past."
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 20:21
Scotlandunspun, you talk about COMEX, metals, confucious, and a load of 'bullion'; either you are bluffing because you don't have an argument. Or, ye huvnae hud yer meds t'day. Either way, if I was you I'd tak thon arguin' style oot fir haloween; that's the scariest debatin' skills a've ever seen!


On the 'other' topic; Scotlandunspun doesn't answer the question of why does he 'agree and defend' posters that calls for ignorance of others on this site, WHEN, his initial premise (of 'defending' the 'disguised' poster) was AGAINST such ideology.

I'll post what Scotlandunspun said, then I'll post what his comrade said.

(Scotlandunspun ):-"I'd like to agree with and defend enneffness. Really, I don't want to see Newsnet Scotland becoming a loyalty issue where you have to say things in a certain way or else your one of them."
(other):-"I'm glad to see that some people agree with what I am saying, rather than implying that I am sort of stooge for Labour, which frankly is becoming tiresome,and I will ignore such comments from now on."

There it is, in black and white; now defend that ideology on this forum please; and nae guff n' bluster aboot confused bullion!
 
 
# Legerwood 2010-10-06 17:36
Allymax you said:
Quote:
One more thing, Gordon Brown 'sold' 350 billion quid's worth of UK gold to the E.U. just before he was booted oot o' office; that gold is now valued at 1.3 trillion, more than UK's debt.


I think your figures are wide of the mark. The gold was sold for £3.5 billion and the 'loss' on this when the price rose was in the region of £7-9 Billion although some have put the loss as low as £2 billion. See the following:
Gold Sale: Robert Peston’s column 2008
bbc.co.uk/.../...

Daily Telegraph Mar 2010
telegraph.co.uk/.../...

Daily Telegraph 1st Apr 2010
telegraph.co.uk/.../...

Times 15 Apr 2010
timesonline.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-07 00:24
legerwod, you cite my consternations; Labour and Brown sold us out!

I don't nik we need to 'dwell' over this anymore; unless you want a fight !

Step up to the plate SFB; allymax is waiting.
 
 
# Legerwood 2010-10-07 10:05
Is the reason that you do not want to 'dwell' on this anymore anything to do with the fact that, much to your consternation, you have been called on your figures?

You can make assertions but if you include figures then ensure they have a degree of accuracy otherwise your assertions can be dismissed as mere exageration.

One last thing - stop being so rude to posters you diminish this site by such behaviour.
 
 
# Bugger the Panda 2010-10-07 10:13
I agree Legerwood wrt allymax.

He really is degrading the boards by his nonsense and rudeness.

I am just going to ignore him, as I hope others will.
 
 
# Bugger the Panda 2010-10-04 13:17
OldNat

It is happening already

The Chines are about to start buying up Greece

euobserver.com/884/30949/?rk=1

I wonder if the Chinese will want the Elgin Mabells back?
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 16:34
China is starting a prosperity programme to refurbish Greece's ports so that Greece's ports can 'facilitate' Chinese exports.

Makes sense when you realise that China isn't in this to make money like our Marxist masters, rather, China is is this to destabilise these Marxists by crusshing the US dollar!
 
 
# rodmac 2010-10-03 19:45
As I understand it. Britain under Labour DID Not,pay off the Banks Debts as they seem to make out. Their oft stated questioning of where Scotland would have found the money to do so,seems to make out.

It has to be remembered that the amount they actually stumped up,was considerably less. The major balance was in acting as a guarantor for the banks! So they simply created more government bonds,and printed off more money!!
What has really hurt us is the total mismanagement of the Uk's wealth. The raiding of the Uks pension fund,and the fire sale on our Gold reserves at knock down prices to name a couple of things.

Trust Labour? Trust Westminster? Trust The Media?

I would rather ask the Loan shark down the road,charging 10000% to manage my household affairs!!!and the Bigoted Gossip round the corner to give me accurate news,
 
 
# ScotlandUnspun 2010-10-03 19:54
Money printing dilutes the wealth of the citizens or put another way drops the value of the currency so citizens take the hit in their purchasing power. Just another way to skin the cat.. It's a bail out and remember bonds need paying back and at interest and usually to institutional lenders like banks..
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 16:36
see my reply above.
 
 
# hektorsmum 2010-10-04 12:37
I agree with you, please let people express themselves. They may not be saying what you want to hear but they have the right to say them. We are all here because the MSM are biased and not telling the truth, and we need to hear the it because if it is only what we want to hear how will we recognise the truth.
I fear that the Banking Crisis has come along at a very fortunate time for the Capitalists out there. Now they can retrench and recover the few rights that the workers (serfs) had managed to acquire, and yes I agree with you it is going to get really bad for everyone.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 16:39
that's not true neither, we are here because the msm are too biased, and they play devious and dirty.

If we collate those 'disguised followers' on here to what Alex' Salmond is experiencing in FMQ's from Gray et al, should we not point out clearly that those 'disguised followers' are actually arguing their perspectives not from a genuine debating premise, but rather as a divisive, and disintegrating premise?

I know what my answer is, and no-one will talk for me.
 
 
# Jonny 2010-10-03 20:00
The Irish Economy is far from being in good shape, much like the UK's and many other countries that had to(?) bail out the Banksters.

"By 2014, according to Dr. Contstantin Gurdgiev of TCD, every single citizen’s share – from infants to grandmothers – of our overall national debt will be €51,830. That figure does not include the billions taken from the national pension reserve fund to further prop up the banks."

home.thejournal.ie/.../?h

There's a film coming out next week called 'Inside Job'. It's all about the banking crisis.

www.youtube.com/.../
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 16:40
guff.
 
 
# Jonny 2010-10-04 18:42
Quoting allymax:
guff.

That's a very intelligent reply, perhaps you can back it up with some reasoned arguments why its guff? Or is it simply not fitting in with your world view.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 20:14
Read the article Jonny !

It says, "There was only one thing wrong with Iain Gray’s intemperate outburst against Ireland – Ireland’s economy is doing just fine. Had the Scottish media carried out five minutes of analysis they would have discovered, as we have done, that immediately after the cash injection to their banks, Irish sovereign debt rallied and borrowing costs plummeted as the all-important bond market signaled its approval for Dublin's honesty and for its timely action. Contrary to what Iain Gray had tried to claim, Ireland’s economy is in pretty good shape, better in some regards than the UK economy as Irish Economist Marc Coleman explained on Radio Scotland on Saturday morning."

So, what you are doing is using the Westminster msm to scaremonger this news site; aye right !
 
 
# Jonny 2010-10-05 23:26
Quoting allymax:
Read the article Jonny !

It says, "There was only one thing wrong with Iain Gray’s intemperate outburst against Ireland – Ireland’s economy is doing just fine. Had the Scottish media carried out five minutes of analysis they would have discovered, as we have done, that immediately after the cash injection to their banks, Irish sovereign debt rallied and borrowing costs plummeted as the all-important bond market signaled its approval for Dublin's honesty and for its timely action. Contrary to what Iain Gray had tried to claim, Ireland’s economy is in pretty good shape, better in some regards than the UK economy as Irish Economist Marc Coleman explained on Radio Scotland on Saturday morning."

So, what you are doing is using the Westminster msm to scaremonger this news site; aye right !


The links I've posted have nothing to do with Westminster msm and you know it (unless you didn't even bother reading them). Is the Irish economy in recession again or not? I believe the answer is 'yes it is'. Ireland should have been allowed to declare bankruptcy, but the bankers will never allow that to happen, they always get their money.

Btw, I couldn't care a less what Iain Gray says about any subject, I'm simply stating that I think the article is wrong in its characterisatio n of Ireland being in good economic health.

Do your research allymax, its hard to learn anything in an echo chamber.

Guff indeed.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-06 15:34
Quoting Jonny:
[quote

The links I've posted have nothing to do with Westminster msm and you know it (unless you didn't even bother reading them). Is the Irish economy in recession again or not? I believe the answer is 'yes it is'. Ireland should have been allowed to declare bankruptcy, but the bankers will never allow that to happen, they always get their money.

Btw, I couldn't care a less what Iain Gray says about any subject, I'm simply stating that I think the article is wrong in its characterisatio n of Ireland being in good economic health.

Do your research allymax, its hard to learn anything in an echo chamber.

Guff indeed.


Jonny, he links you quoted ARE everything to do with the Westminster msm, AND YOU KNOW IT !

Like I said, scaremongering guff.
 
 
# J Wil 2010-10-03 20:13
It seems that Gray's latest utterings are that he wants to have his cake and eat it.

He wants to be consensual and cooperate with the opposition if Labour are returned to power, but he doesn't want to be consensual with the SNP in power. How is he going to get away with that strategy?

He also wants to steal the SNP idea of operating with a minority government (i.e. no coalition).
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2010-10-03 20:28
A long article worth reading but the large paragraph below the picture of Charles Ponzi will illustrate the problem if time is a problem.

energybulletin.net/.../...
 
 
# enneffess 2010-10-03 20:47
I'm glad to see that some people agree with what I am saying, rather than implying that I am sort of stooge for Labour, which frankly is becoming tiresome, and I will ignore such comments from now on.

We need to get away from being scared to comment adversely on anything that the SNP politicians have used as comparisons in order to promote the independence message.

There is nothing wrong in using comparisons, but you also have to be prepared that things can and do go wrong.

If anyone has noticed, the SNP message has now ignored Iceland and Ireland and is focused on Norway, which IS a good example. It proves the viability of an oil fund, and also supports Salmond's original argument. It is unfortunate that the economy had to fall over to prove it.

But Ireland's economy was built on property, not oil, and they are going to struggle like the rest of us.

The message has to be clear and to the point: oil will provide what the Westminster government can't.
 
 
# Dougie Douglas 2010-10-03 23:40
Sure, I think the bottom line though is GDP/capita and in Ireland it is considerably higher than Scotland.

Ireland has similar debt levels to the UK.

Surely Ireland is therefore in a better condition than us?. The comments of Grey and Murphy have been noted and will not be forgotten readily - they are extremely poor statesman and look pygmies beside Salmond.
 
 
# Nik 2010-10-04 11:36
Completely agree with your post NFS, and with the top 2 sentences, in particular.

I've noticed a couple of posters on here who don't like any criticism of the SNP, full stop, which is quite unhealthy.

If this site is to be taken seriously, then this stort of thing needs to stop.
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 16:42
If you are to be taken seriously, then stop criticising from an uncritical position; explain why you think it is 'unhealthy' for this site, and that you agree with your comrade.

P.s, I notice your 'comrade' is spouting spurious lies again. (it) said, "I'm glad to see that some people agree with what I am saying," actually, no-one has agreed with what you are saying; only Scotlandunspun has said he says you should have a platform to spill your bile and lies.

Scotlandunspun, now you have their premise of divide and conquer, and you 'agree and defend' them; "I'm glad to see that some people agree with what I am saying, rather than implying that I am sort of stooge for Labour, which frankly is becoming tiresome, and I will ignore such comments from now on."

Aye, very clever Scotlandunspun; like I said, you'll need to get up a lot earlier to be aware of their game. It's positions like this that were all sold down to Westminster by thon rogue parcels. Thanks a lot Scotlandunspun for defending their right to apply divisive tactics onto this Newsnet site.

Like I said, not very clever after all eh?
 
 
# rgweir 2010-10-03 20:47
I think the bailout was,,six billion cash with the rest being promisery note.
 
 
# Crazyhill 2010-10-03 20:47
The point worth noting here is that Marc Coleman is DEFENDING his country, which is something Ian Gray would never be guilty of - especially if that country was Scotland (oops,sorry Ian, I forgot - Scotland's a region. How silly of me!)
In mitigation, I would agree that far too much emphasis was put, by Mr Salmond, on the Celtic Tiger and too little on Norway as an exemplar of where Scotland should be heading.
Some 10-12 years ago I was gently 'put-down' by the then SNP Finance Spokesman for suggesting that very thing. Ah well, It's not often I'm right......!!
I thing Alex Salmond should make Ian Gray his special envoy to Tristan da Cuhna. That should keep him out of harm's way! On second thoughts, keep him here, he's the best weapon the SNP has!
 
 
# Jonny 2010-10-03 21:25
For a more in depth analysis of Ireland, Greece and Hungary's problems, check out the below link to Webster Tarpley's blog.

Tarpley writes from an international/US perspective, but its interesting non the less. When we do finally achieve independence, we are going to have to deal first-hand with a den of vipers. Happily, history teaches to those that bother to look it up.
 
 
# Jonny 2010-10-03 21:25
Quoting Jonny:
For a more in depth analysis of Ireland, Greece and Hungary's problems, check out the below link to Webster Tarpley's blog.

Tarpley writes from an international/US perspective, but its interesting non the less. When we do finally achieve independence, we are going to have to deal first-hand with a den of vipers. Happily, history teaches to those that bother to look it up.


Oops, I forgot the link:

tarpley.net/.../#more-1840
 
 
# ScotlandUnspun 2010-10-03 21:56
enneffness,
In fairness, I think we have to understand that nationalists have had a bad crack of the whip in the media over the decades. I think a little supersensitivit y is understable during the process of normalisation.

Propaganda has the awful effect of shaping the mind of its detractors..
 
 
# allymax 2010-10-04 16:46
see my post above. You now appear to be apologising for Scottish Nationalists; how very 'accommodating' of you to speak for us all!
 
 
# Dougie Douglas 2010-10-03 23:36
I remember back in 1991 reading a piece in Scotland on Sunday that had a GDP/capita league table of all the (ahem) 'regions' of Europe.

Scotland sat right on the EU mid point of having an average GDP/capita score of 100.

The republic of Ireland had a score of 75 points, i.e. 25% less than Scotland.

What has happened in the last 19 years.

The EU has soaked up the eastern bloc and many poor states (which would drag down the median GDP/capita)

Ireland has become one of the richest states (still)

Scotland has dropped down below the median

We are getting poorer despite our many advantages.

WTF
 
 
# cjmasta 2010-10-03 23:47
I hope we hear more from our european Cousins when the election really kicks in and the unionists contunue to slag off our neighbours for their own ends. Although if the BBC have their way this will be the last time we hear from this guy and others like him. Muppets like the gray man need to learn that they can`t just make ridiculous claims of certain people without there being some kind of backlash.
 
 
# soosider 2010-10-04 07:57
I cannot help but think that we constantly dance to the unionists tune when we start to get into this comparative dance. To my mind the real issue about Ireland, Iceland or any other average sized country is that they will be go forward under their own steam.
They will make decision based on what they believe is in the best interest of their country, that is what Scotland lacks.
So enough with these endless comparatives a countrys right to rule itself is not set by an accountants spreadsheet.
 
 
# ubinworryinmasheep 2010-10-04 10:55
I put it to a unionist that Ireland far from being up sh*t creek will actually be better off than the UK before long ...and this is the reply....

Ireland??!! The man who uses the Irish Republic as a case for Scottish independence has the audacity to talk to us about credibility. You must be having a laugh!

Ireland is moving closer to bankruptcy as we speak. The rate of unemplo...yment is one of the highest in Europe and the country now has a finance defecit of 32% of its GDP (ten times the Maastricht guideline for eurozone members) while foreign investors are hemorrhaging. So in answer to your question, what the UK has got, is a deficit which is only 6% of it's GDP so you do the maths.

Only last year, The Irish Government compulsorily seized a flat sum of €300 from every tax payer in the country in order to stem off the first threat of insolvency and that clearly did not work. The Irish Government had to fork out billions of euros on bailing out the Anglo-Irish Bank and is looking as though it will have to fork yet out another €50 billion to bail it out again, so there goes your €20 billion sovereignty fund down the tubes and then some. The Irish Finance Minister claimed only two days ago that Ireland has only enough funds to cope until April 2011 and then after that it could be a case of "last one out the country turn the lights out". There is growing concern that Ireland will be soon joining Greece on the list of economic black-holes. The Celtic Tiger is fast becoming extinct and if you are seriously telling us that Ireland is in a better off position than Scotland, you are the one who should consider having the head examined. Goodness knows the Republicans in the North are probably thanking their lucky stars they remained British.

Any comments ? His spelling mistake not mine !
 
 
# springy 2010-10-04 11:09
I suppose the one that springs to my mind is that the UK have yet to start the measures that Ireland are taking. The UK debt doesn't (I believe) take into account the massive credit card liabilities in the UK nor has PFI appeared on the books yet. Ireland has problems with it's banks as does the UK and don't forget that the UK is considering printing even more money in order to try to prevent a double dip recession.

The banking crisis is a swings and roundabouts affair that affects different nations in different ways and each in turn takes different measures to address the problem. The fact that Ireland is able to make these funds available kind of destroys the Unionist argument that Scotland, with her vast oil reserves, wouldn't.

Unionists need to continually create bogeymen against independence, that shows the weakness of their argument. Mention Norway and their demands for debate disappear, they will resort then to ridicule.

Wait until our own 'austerity measures' actually begin and then see how many people feel protecetd by this Union. There won't be many of them and then take a look at Ireland as her banks start to make a profit again and her economy outstrips the UK and Scotland.

Unionists are resorting to a short term argument, it will be their undoing. The biggest threat to Scotland was never the financial crisis, it was always Unionism. Under their watch we have lost control of HBOS and The Dunfermline, the Union protects only one thing and that is itself.
 
 
# oldnat 2010-10-04 18:56
Have a look at Hamish McRae's article that I referred to upthread

independent.co.uk/.../...

Enough in there to answer the Onionist, I think. Stress needs to be put on the difference between short and long term, and the effect of electing a really crap Government which built its taxation regime on a bubble (property in Ireland, financial sector in the UK). Elect crap, and that's what you get! Should the USA still be subject to Mother England because they were stupid enough to elect Bush? If, they had stayed - they'd have got Blair, and still been stuffed.
 
 
# robmcdonald 2010-10-04 12:01
Still on the topic of economics but slightly off to one side. Have a look at renegadeeconomi st.com for a straight talking discussion on the economy we can all understand. This guy was warning Broon about the dangers of boom and bust way before Broon said he was going to cure it.
Edit: Fred Harrison is the guys name.
 
 
# Nautilus 2010-10-04 13:22
‘An independent Scotland could not have coped with the banking crisis given that Scottish banks were significantly larger than Irish banks.’ I may be wrong, but I understood that all banks registered in the UK were banks, run under British banking regulations as laid down by a Westminster parliament and operating under the eye of the Bank of England and the City of London, and nominally controlled by the British Financial Services Authority. In terms of shareholding, I think you will find that share ownership was in the hands of mainly English institutions and private individuals.

An independent Scotland might just have run its banking system under different regulations, say more along the Canadian or Australian model.

I think most people will agree that the ‘World Economic Recession’ was caused by poor banking regulation in the US, aped by the City of London and copied in other parts of Europe in order to compete with the large profits being made from nothing in New York and London. Greenspan and Brown were the instigators who encouraged this behaviour. Here, it can be laid squarely at Labour's door.

The old proverb, ‘People in glass houses’ comes to mind with respect to Gray.
 
 
# oldnat 2010-10-04 17:07
Also, London was the main centre for the dodgy derivatives trade. As Brown should have said "It started in London".
 
 
# Gaavster 2010-10-05 22:14
Excellent point Oldnat and worth repeating over and over again
 

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