General

By G.A.Ponsonby
 
The myth that Scotland is subsidised by England is leading to a growing resentment south of the border according to results of a new survey.
 
The IPPR report “The Dog That Finally Barked” has highlighted growing demands within England for more autonomy fuelled by a belief that the current constitutional set up is unfair and Scots receive more than their fair share of UK resources.

The poll reveals that amongst the English, Britishness as an identity is on the decline with over twice as many south of the border now opting to be described as English (40%) rather than British (16%).

Worryingly for the three main Unionist parties, only 23 per cent of those surveyed felt that the interests of the English were addressed by either the Conservatives, Labour or the Lib Dems.  59 per cent admit that they no longer trust the UK Government to look after the long term interests of England.

According to the report 80 per cent of English now favour devo-max for Scotland amid a growing English cultural politicisation resulting from Welsh and Scottish devolution.

The report’s authors claim the results are evidence of an emerging “English political culture” amid growing anger at what many believe to be “privileges” enjoyed by the Scots at the English expense.

Key points of the report include:

  • The number of voters in England who believe that Scottish devolution has made the way Britain is governed worse (35 per cent) has doubled since 2007.
  • The English increasingly believe they get a raw-deal from the devolved settlement, with 45 per cent of voters in England saying that Scotland gets ‘more than its fair share of public spending’ - the number agreeing with this has almost doubled since 2000. Meanwhile 40 per cent of voters in England say that England gets ‘less than its fair share’ of public money.
  • 52 per cent of English respondents believe that Scotland’s economy benefits more than England’s from being in the UK, while less than one in four believe England and Scotland’s economies benefit equally.
  • While support for Scottish independence remains low - only 22 per cent say Scots should go it alone - the English strongly support the view that the current devolved settlement should be reformed.   At fully 80 per cent, there is also overwhelming support in England for ‘devolution-max’ (full fiscal autonomy) for Scotland, with 44 per cent agreeing strongly. 
  • 79 per cent say Scottish MPs should be barred from voting on English laws, with an absolute majority agreeing strongly with that proposition.
  • There has been a sharp rise since 2007 in the proportion of English voters who say they agree strongly with barring Scottish MPs from voting on English laws and ‘devolution-max’, which underlines the intensity of feeling now associated with these reforms.

SNP MSP and member of the Scottish Parliament’s Finance Committee Paul Wheelhouse said that independence for both nations would allow a new partnership between both nations.

Responding to the report, Mr Wheelhouse said:

“Independence is by far the simplest answer to the West Lothian Question currently concerning Westminster and offers a new 21st century partnership between Scotland and the rest of the UK that would end the misconceptions over Scotland’s ability to pay her own way.

“Independence will mean no Scottish MPs at Westminster, Scotland raising all the money it spends, decisions taken in Scotland for Scotland by those that live here.  Year on year, Scotland pays more into the UK Exchequer than we get in return.

“Taking all Scottish revenues and all spending in Scotland into account - including the financial sector interventions – the official Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) figures show that Scotland has run a current budget surplus in four of the five years to 2009/10, while the UK was in current budget deficit in each of these years, and hasn’t run a current budget surplus since 2001/02.

“The latest GERS figures show that Scotland generated 9.4 per cent of UK tax with 8.4 per cent of the population - the equivalent of 1,000 pounds extra for every man, woman and child in Scotland.”

The myth of the Scottish ‘subsidy junkie’ has its roots based in the seventies when, after the discovery of North Sea Oil, successive Scottish Unionist politicians, in a bid to halt the rise in support for the SNP, claimed that Scotland would be worse off if independent.

In 1988, after Jim Sillars won the Govan by-election, the late Donald Dewar, when shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, claimed that an independent Scotland would have an economy similar to Bangladesh.  He was roundly condemned for doing so.

In 1974 a report written by economist Gavin McCrone for the UK Government, revealed that an independent Scotland would have been one of the wealthiest nations on earth with an embarrassing tax surplus.

Far from being a basket case, as claimed by Scottish Labour MPs, Scots would have become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and "this situation could last for a very long time into the future." wrote McCrone in the 19 page report.

However the incoming Labour administration classified the document as secret and it was not until 2005, after thirty years had expired, that the truth emerged after the SNP submitted a freedom of information request.

 

[Notice – Newsnet Scotland has been experiencing some technical issues with our host server.  We are currently investigating the cause and would like to apologise to visitors to the site for any inconvenience.]

Comments  

 
# govanite 2012-01-23 19:08
Dear Blubber

We are being told that after Independence Scottish soldiers would have nothing to do, no role at all, just like Trident perhaps.

Imagine all the World's soldiers with nothing to do. Surely it is a good thing for soldiers to have nothing to do ?
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-23 20:13
Dear Govan
I am having difficulty replying to your questions This is my second try
In answer to your question our troops will have plenty to do As you know there is nothing sae braw as oor sojers in full kit So I propose beauty contests They will have to work on their pecs and other bits To make sure they try hard the booby prize will be a date wi' stairhead That should focus their minds

I am having the bogey constructed as we speak to transport the nukes back to their rightful owners They can take tourist round them to earn a wee bit cash since they will be up the swanee without our subsidies

Toodle-oo Flubber
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-01-23 19:13
The extent to which people in England may be prey to myth was brought home to me by a letter which I came across in The Telegraph.

Quote:
Perhaps England should make a unilateral declaration of independence and secede from the United Kingdom, leaving the Celtic fringes either to get on with their own lives or to negotiate terms to join.

If they joined, they would become part of England in one united country with a single parliament to represent everybody – which is what we had before devolution.


Note that last paragraph. This individual evidently genuinely believes that Scotland was part of England prior to devolution.

Perhaps we should be sending missionaries?

www.referendumdebate.com/.../
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-23 20:48
I think "what we had before devolution" might refer to "a single parliament to represent everybody" rather than "part of England". Or am I being too kind?
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-01-23 21:13
I can only read what was written. If the writer meant something different then he should have expressed himself differently.
 
 
# fynesider 2012-01-24 17:07
Far too kind Jiggsbro..... The History curriculum in England has as many holes in it as does it's Scottish counterpart by the sounds of it!
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-23 20:59
I remember taking the micky out of a bus load of English football supporters when we had the home internationals. I was passing this bus as they were just starting to get off. They asked how to get to Hamden and I said follow us we're going to the match. I though I'd have a laugh. So there they were all decked out in union flags & singing God Save the Queen. So I said,"Are we going to win today". Then acted as if they were supporting Scotland. Eventually I said, "Wait a mo - something wrong here, are you lot not Scottish"? Amid great laughter they started pointing to the union flags, "Don't you see our flags. Don't you hear the national anthem"? They were quite shocked when I pointed out the Scots were equally entitled to both. Mind you, being me I just had to point out that the Queen was actually more our Queen than theirs as it was our King that went down and took over the English throne and added England to his monarchy. The sheer ignorance was really quite funny. In those days you never saw a St Georges flag. Of course they reffered to the Union flag as the Union Jack, I then had to explain to them that it was not a Union Jack they were proudly displaying as a union jack was the small variation of the union flag that was flown on a ships jack staff on the ship's bow. That was what things were like back then in the late 1950s.
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-01-23 21:15
Post-independence, there may be a role for you in Scotland's diplomatic corps.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-24 06:21
:0D
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-24 16:15
Aye! Electric Hermit, but ----

As A MOD employee, with the Admiralty, for over 50 years I feel I have served my country well it that very respect. Sometimes it was not always quite as diplomatic as it really should have been. Let us face it, "Jolly Jack", is not always the most well mentally attuned persons to comprehend the diplomatic approach. For example, once during silent hours, (that time when no normal shifts are working). I boarded a ship under refit to do work on the electrical shore connection. The only people aboard were myself and two naval fire-watchers. They had no knowledge of my job and should have been in a shore based porta-cabin and only make hourly rounds. As I came aboard I heard great hilarity on the starboard side., (furthest from the dockside). I quietly looked round the deck housing at two Jolly Jacks. They had a white enamelled pail full of galley gash, (waste food), a compressed air line, a length of steel electrical conduit, a large ball of string and a 1/4” Whitworth nut. While one Jolly Jack prepared, “the gear”, the other threw bits of galley gash to seagulls. When the gear was primed and loaded, (the compressed air tube attached, loaded with a lump of galley gash, and the 1/4” Whitworth nut with the string attached), Jolly Jack Tar 2 aimed the weapon, Jolly Jack Tar 1, grabbed the air line tap and turned it on. The galley gash+1/4” nut launched into the air. A passing gull swallowed the bait and when the string reached its full distance the gull was gutted white still alive. Not feeling rather diplomatic, I promptly threw Jolly Jack Tar no 1 overboard followed by a handy lifebuoy. Sometimes diplomacy just will not do.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-24 00:52
"...This individual evidently genuinely believes that Scotland was part of England prior to devolution...."

This must be one of the dogs that are barking.
 
 
# Christian_Wright 2012-01-24 09:07
I am not at all convinced by this new meme, popular among the chattering classes, that England is just beginning to find its national identity.

"Britain" and "England" are are regarded as synonyms throughout the world for a reason - it is because the great majority of Britons who identify as English, regard it as so.

The United Kingdom is naught but a Greater England wherein Scotland is at best, a vassal state. The United Kingdom represents the vestigial remains of the English Empire.

Now I know that "the Celtic fringes" as yesterday's leader in the Scotsman demeaningly describe Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales, played an important role in developing and maintaining that empire, but they did so after being subsumed by the dominant people and culture in these islands

The colonial mindset of the Telegraph letter writer Hermit cites, and of the Scotsman editor responsible for yesterday's leader, is evident from the use of that phrase, "the Celtic fringe". We are seen as mere appendages to the real power, the real country, England. We inhabit the pretendy countries that occupy Greater England's periphery.

Make no mistake, the UK was established and remains to this day, an imperium, and this current struggle for Scottish independence expresses a viscerally felt need to throw off the yoke of that bondage.

Again, what sort of twisted rearrangement of psyche is required to dismissively refer to one's own nation as a fringe? Now it is possible that the author of the Scotsman leader article is not borne of that "fringe", but, like the contributor to the Telegraph, is of the dominant population on this isle. Either way the message is the same - we are lesser peoples, hardly relevant appendages, and of little import.

Alas, this message is internalized by many Scots. What other parliament would have a substantial minority of its members fighting tooth and nail for LESS powers and LESS say in its own affairs?

Yet this is what we have witnessed at Holyrood, where the mass of the opposition will not countenance the notion of offering its citizenry the option of devo max FFA. No, they want no change now. . and well, perhaps a smattering of devo jam tomorrow . . after the indy referendum . . maybe.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-01-23 19:15
Karma, anyone?
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-01-23 19:18
Would this be an apt time to say that "the chickens are coming home to roost?"

O/T

telegraph.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Alx1 2012-01-23 19:34
Excellent link to keep Duke. That will send a few ar**s puckering down south then!
Btw I have always argued the point that Scotland's oil could last for a 100 years, then I ask them disprove me.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-01-23 20:11
You never reveal the true extent of reserves unless you want to be taxed to hell.....
 
 
# Alx1 2012-01-23 23:44
Hope you don't mind SS if I just change that a wee bit.
You never reveal the true extent of reserves so you will be attached to hell.....
Sorry couldn't resist.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-24 06:22
That's a cracker. :0)
 
 
# annewitha_e 2012-01-29 14:39
ah this is why davcam doesnt want us to go... follow the money
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-23 19:19
There are going to be a great number of VERY angry people around in these islands once the true state of Scotland's economy emerges.
The Scots because they will find out how many lies they have been told about too poor etc for so many years and the English for the same reason (why were they not told that we were in actual fact subsidising them).
Westminster is playing a very dangerous game with what will remain of the population under their control.
 
 
# annewitha_e 2012-01-29 14:41
but who is going to tell them? the BBC? the Establishment? I think not..
 
 
# macgilleleabhar 2012-01-23 19:23
Unionists.

You reap what you sow.
 
 
# Alx1 2012-01-23 19:26
This myth has also been perpetuated by westminster's insistance on using doctored figures to show that London receives less subsidy that it actually does.

GERS is an detailed estimated amount and doesn't show the full extent of Scotland's finances.
For all those interested here is a full list of what is estimated. Handy link to keep.

www.scotland.gov.uk/.../6#t42

This is all good pressure from Englandshire as most of the English MPs will be very wary watching their backs!

Over the last few weeks where we have bombarded with derogatory remarks (subsidised comes up frequently) in the comments section of the UK press. I have posted this link many times (below) and urged our southern cousins to start an 'e' petition demanding Independence for England or Scotland.
As yet none have taken me up on it.

Try it it does seem to shut some of the ignorant ones up a bit.

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-01-23 22:54
Quoting Alx1:
Over the last few weeks where we have bombarded with derogatory remarks (subsidised comes up frequently) in the comments section of the UK press. I have posted this link many times (below) and urged our southern cousins to start an 'e' petition demanding Independence for England or Scotland.


epetitions.direct.gov.uk/

I have an idea for you Alx1.

If we get enough signatories we can get a question raised in the house of commons.

I propose we ask "We petition the government to publish the reasoning behind the decision to make the McCrone report top secret for 30 years?"

How many signatures do we need?
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-23 23:05
100,000
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-01-23 23:41
So lets start witht he SNP members and move on from there to the non-affilliated newsnet community and then see how far we can go.

We could get some really quite embarrassing questions asked like:-

"Why is the Scottish Oil Revenue accounted for as 'Ex-Regio Territories'?"
 
 
# Alx1 2012-01-23 23:28
Sleekit,

I have posted this link on many national(?) newspaper comments section, in response to their whinging saying start an e petition and not one of them have.
I don't think it would be a good idea for someone from Scotland to start the petition as the UK Government will just dismiss it.
Soon as someone from England starts it, I will gladly sign.
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-01-23 23:38
Different question Alx1.

I'd like to see them squirm as they try to explain why they hid the truth from the Scottish publlc for 30 years.

The English can petition for their own parliament in another one.
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-01-25 13:48
Here is an earlier bit of research which was very empowering:

"The Big Lie"

scottishpolitics.org/.../...
 
 
# Teri 2012-01-23 19:33
I cannot be angry at English people who really do believe that they are contributing to Scotland as we are unable to afford to keep ourselves. Successive governments have punted this line over the decades, not for the benefit of the English, but to keep us Scots in our place. We are the ones who are meant to believe we cannot afford to go it alone and unfortunately there is still a good percentage of the Scottish people who believe it. The fact that the English are the ones who believe this shows that this government myth has backfired on them, causing real discontent within the English population.

The government in Westminster need to dispel this myth now as by not doing so, they are stirring up trouble for themselves at a later date. I have two brothers who moved to Corby in Northamptonshir e in the 1950s. Corby has a large Scots and Irish population, most of whom went to work in the steel industry and settled there. My brothers tell me that in the past couple of years that even there, the attitude of the English there, who are in the minority, to the Scots has changed radically and is now one of bitterness and resentment.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-23 20:29
Ukip must be rubbing their hands with glee! The will pounce on the 'England' card in the net election, and probably do quite well in certain areas.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-24 06:31
A very good point Teri.
 
 
# balbeggie 2012-01-23 19:55
An upbeat report on Russia Today - cannot imagine the BBC reporting in this manner:

rt.com/.../...
 
 
# clootie 2012-01-23 20:52
thanks for the link
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-01-24 01:51
Thanks... I watch RT as my preferred TV News now. Much more fair and balanced in the US and here.
 
 
# 0din 2012-01-23 20:01
Again with the MidLothian question maybe Scotland should stop being ruled by Westminster Governments based solely on English votes.
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-01-23 20:08
The IPPR report states quite clearly on p.34 "But even if Scotland chooses
to reject independence and ‘devolution-max’ and instead opts for the status quo, the Future of England survey suggests that the rise in English sentiment against the current
arrangements will prove hard to resist."

In other words, if we do not vote for independence in 2014, the Westminster Government will be under pressure from demands from English voters to reform the democratic arrangements in the UK. ie.if we don't vote 'YES', we will be shafted.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-01-23 20:13
It's the Scots who have the subsidy junkie myth embedded in their psyches that we have to worry about.

Tell your average Scot that this country produces more barrels of oil per year than Qatar and they'll think you're joking.

The brainwashing's been so thorough that Scots will now step in and spread the pro- union propaganda for Westminster without any prompting.

"We could never make it on our own" is sadly a common refrain from people in Scotland and they're not even aware of how they know that as a truth and why they're willing to spread it around.

Forget whether English people think we're subsidised. They won't be voting.

Concentrate on the Scots who've been colonised in the head.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-01-23 20:24
As an aside, one of my work colleagues at the affshore is ex Royal Navy.

He was born in England and raised in Scotland from the age of one. He is now in his mid thirties and has just moved back to England.

He is an intelligent and likeable man.

However...

Yesterday he said, apropos of nothing, that if Scotland ever became independent then the armed forces of both countries would be forever at war with each other.

When asked to justify this astonishing statement, all he could say was, "Well, they just would".

Unbelievable.

Recently a friend back home stated that they wouldn't be voting for Independence, not because of the SNP but because the standard of opposition was so bad.

Its at times like these that you feel like jumping off a cliff.
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-01-23 20:50
Quoting GrassyKnollingt on:
The brainwashing's been so thorough that Scots will now step in and spread the pro- union propaganda for Westminster without any prompting.


When I read that, I just want to weep for my country.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-23 22:08
It is very simple to case them to pause and think. Just ask them to show the figures that prove their point. When they say they cannot you say, "Now you know why the United Kingdom fights so hard to keep Scotland in the union.

Considering that the UK Prime minister cannot bring figures to prove the point then neither can they.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-24 16:43
You just highlighted what should be done on someone making that statement. Just ask, And your figures to prove that are ... ... ..."? I've been doing that for years and not yet been answered.
 
 
# GloomyJim 2012-01-23 20:25
I see that E Bay have a free weekend to sell any of your old unused stuff at any price.Anybody up for putting Trident, submarines and WMD up for sale on E Bay starting at £0.99? Since the Royal Navy are out there at the moment "Could deliver to Straits of Hormuz" Free Labour MP with every offer.
 
 
# rhymer 2012-01-23 21:58
good one
 
 
# brusque 2012-01-23 20:30
Louper; that sounds just like the inane comments in many of the National newspapers. The fact that you know him to be an intelligent and likable man, is belied by his abject ignorance in this matter.

It is the thing that worries me tremendously about people who swallow Unionist lies without ever trying to find out if they are true.

It worries me.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-23 22:13
When you have rapped as many doors as I have through the years you don't wonder at such utter ignorance. You get replies like, "But if we vote for the SNP we won't get our £10 Christmas bonus".
 
 
# Mac 2012-01-23 20:40
Lets start making a list of Independence Myths, Scares and Smears that are used to denigrate Scots and Scotland.
 
 
# BeltaneFire 2012-01-23 21:52
See link: unionhijacked.wordpress.com/.../...

This site is already doing this.
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-01-23 23:35
I loved the site as it really has trawled the web for the "best" in Unionist arguments...

If scotland is independent they will be chucked out by europe, have no currency, sell the oil fields to china, shetlanders will flee to norway, the UN will not accept us, the country will starve as it has no money, Nato will hate us, and my favourite one was "It will be the Highland Clearances all over again!", although that was on the Daily Mail.

I think I will be forwarding these stories onto others.
 
 
# nchanter 2012-01-24 00:13
Quoting BeltaneFire:
See link: unionhijacked.wordpress.com/.../...

This site is already doing this.

Daily Mail nough said
 
 
# clootie 2012-01-23 20:45
Subsidy
I think BRINGITON has summed it up well and once again after Independence the penny will drop - I do feel sorry for them as they have been lied to as much as us.

Defence force
Several nations have very effective armed forces that do not need to maintain aggresive intervention to be ready.
I think Scotland will built a trusted reputation as a peacekeeping force as the troops are able to show confidence with an edge IF required. We just need to rid ourselves of the reputation of being the shock troops of the empire (or cannon fodder depending on your point of view)
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-01-23 21:19
Slightly OT, but just to show you how easily our money is spent by the MOD...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16691207
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-01-23 20:50
Bookmark this link: newstatesman.com/.../...
Send it to all the papers which assert we are too poor, too wee etc.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-23 21:43
Have you read the comments ?

Some of them are quite abysmal. There are no references or links in the article for people to go and look for themselves, and even when someone puts up the GERS report links, the 'English' posters refuse to believe the figures and claim such nonsense as

'I'm sure every nation and region of the UK could claim to putting in more to the pot than they get back'..

Personally, I blame the media as much as any politician. They encourage the scare stories, they encourage the 10 second soundbite from Kelvin MacKenzie telling the Scots to p**s off because he's fed up subsidising us. They give us Paxman and Dimbleby, Marr and Naughtie (2 of them Scots) all who have made the most disparaging remarks about us and fuelled the myth. Chuck in Starkey slagging off the Scots in Question Time and here the laughter in the audience and you know there is going to be trouble.
The media pursue the myth, the people will react to it because they believe whats being reported.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-01-23 21:20
Scotland raises £48Billion In tax

Block Grant £27Billion + £16Billion? Pensions etc = £43Billion

Scotland is underfunded £5Billion
 
 
# clochoderic 2012-01-23 21:29
I think the penny is beginning to drop with the Westminster chatterati that Scots Independence is already having a major knock-on effect in (for them) unforeseen ways.

What the Scots can teach us about England's radical soul.

Talk of a referendum on Scottish independence should prompt Labour to think about what it means to be English too

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-24 06:50
Aye, clocked that story masel'. Veeeery interesteenk.
 
 
# Mac 2012-01-23 21:56
"We English, who are a marvellous people, are really very generous to Scotland." - Margaret Thatcher in the Times, 12 February 1990.
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-01-23 23:48
Quoting Mac:
"We English, who are a marvellous people, are really very generous to Scotland." - Margaret Thatcher in the Times, 12 February 1990.

Craig Murray has a view on the ideal time for Thatcher's demise. craigmurray.org.uk/.../...
 
 
# Nautilus 2012-01-23 22:02
The English should look at the sink which is the real drain on their wealth. One part of the UK is doing very nicely, thank you, with massive infrastructure investment and high pay (London weighting etc), full employment and rising house prices while the rest of the country is suffering. Yeah, the real subsidy junkies are London and the Home Counties.

They will soon realise, when Scotland is taken out of the equation, that they are all subsiding not us, but the wealthy southerners.

And, by the way, the English have never thought of themselves as British. They have always referred to the whole of the UK as ‘England’. No one has taught any of them anything other than English history.

Since when did the relatively piddling number of Scottish MPs in Wastemonster ever influence English only legislation? The overwhelming majority of English MPs voting on UK matters that also affect us is relevant.

Let's get off this sinking ship, fast.
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-01-23 23:59
Nautilus
If we are to get off the sinking ship, it would be a good idea to have an alternative means of transport. Has anyone thought of buying the bankrupted Seafrance ferry boats? We could get the Rosyth link going again, and this time it would be a real ferry boat, not the impractical type of boat that Norfolkline used. This could be an option for Stagecoach.
 
 
# gus1940 2012-01-24 10:16
Great idea.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-23 22:09
Another lie exposed


Another scare story collapses.Spanish Foreign Minister says story Spain would block Scotland's EU membership is "strictly false
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-01-24 00:48
Linky?
 
 
# rhymer 2012-01-23 22:10
I wonder if the truth will be told at the upcoming TV "debate" or will we get the usual bias loading of the panel and the audience - and a lot of unionist propaganda and lies ?
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-01-23 22:10
The attitude of some of the less well informed in darkest England is captured perfectly by listening to Simon Hoggart political sketch writer at the Grauniad.

He manages to combine that heady blend of condescension and ignorance when interviewed on BBC Radio Scotland's Newsdrive programme this evening.

You can hear him here about 42.00 mins in from the start.

www.bbc.co.uk/.../b019p9f2
 
 
# thebunnyman 2012-01-23 22:11
when i read what the unionists envisage what an independent scotland will be like, i can't but think that this is what psychologist, term, projection:

"....of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field" (Alex Shoumatoff).

it's not what scotland will become that they fear. it's what 'they' will be reduced to.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-01-23 22:34
I'm a bit concerned by this -

".... a belief [in England] that the current constitutional set up is unfair and Scots receive more than their fair share of UK resources"

When the nations of the UK have their own parliaments and control of their own resources and policy, the English will realise that their belief that they were subsidising the Scots was wrong. Who will they blame for the misinformation? The real culprits or the sleekit Scots?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-23 22:38
The real truth is this - The present set-up sees the present UK government cutting hard back with swinging cuts on all branches of the armend forces and civil service. Not to mention such as NHS, Post Office, DVLC, and so on. In defence contracts they cannot manage to keep the, not yet built, aircraft carriers, scrapping whole aircraft programmes and closeing down defence establishments. That is with the full whack of Scottish oil and the surplus of tax that Scotland pays, (that's without our geographic share of the oil). Just how do you think that an English only parliament could maintain what is left of their share of the total defence of England?

Remeber that they will lose the share of VAT, road tax, broadcast licence fee, business rates and taxes and other stuff Scottish business pays. Then they will also lose the share of tax that UK wide companies pay that is earned in Scotland. Fuel tax, insurance premium tax. et al. They may end up the poorest nation in Europe unless they draw their collective belts in.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-23 22:42
Scotland tonight on stv on and interesting. now.
 
 
# Glasgow 2012-01-23 22:46
Scotland Tonight - STV: news.stv.tv/.../...
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-01-24 01:20
STV Graphics dept not quite up on flags
if you look at the 'uk' map it has the saltire for Scotland, St Georges flag for England and the Welsh Dragon for Wales. For Northern Ireland it has the Union Jack instead of the cross of ulster
 
 
# Hirta 2012-01-23 23:11
 
 
# Alx1 2012-01-23 23:40
Hirta,

He forgot to mention the hard drinking?

Seriously I have said this before; the Russians like the Scots. I have worked and drank with many over the years and paid heavily with headaches for days after! Vodka urgh!!
They have a dislike of the English (not my words) saying that they are arrogant.
Now where have I heard that before?
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-01-24 00:19
And they like Irn-Bru.
 
 
# lozzie 2012-01-23 23:34
OFF TOPIC


It seems the Westminster think it would be wise to invest in renewables after all. Just not Scottish renewables.



clickgreen.org.uk/.../...


"Aside from marketing, a key advantage of the new park status will be to put the region at the head of the queue for Government cash.

Some £20 million has been ring-fenced in the marine energy development fund, an extra £1 billion has been added to the Regional Growth Fund and the £3 billion Green Investment Bank is expected to open shortly.

A second marine energy park is planned in the north of Scotland, but many think the South West has now stolen a march on its closest rival.

Ministers last year moved to end Scotland’s more favourable investment conditions by doubling the amount of subsidies lavished on the sector in England and Wales, creating parity for so-called Renewable Energy Certificates across the UK."






Now I don't grudge the SW of England a chance to grow their economy using their skills and resources. But for Westminster to publicly discourage renewable investment in Scotland (arguably the internationally recognized natural choice) Whilst at the same time subsidizing the same industry where there are safe coalition seats seems a bit hypocritical.

"Oliver Colvile, Conservative MP for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, said: "This is excellent news and clearly demonstrates that Plymouth's messages about wanting to rebalance the economy and the south west becoming the centre for marine renewable has been heard at the highest levels in Government. We still have a great deal more to do but it appears that we are on the right track. This is yet another example of how having 90 per cent of the MPs in the south west from the coalition parties is making sure our voice is being heard."







Of course one advantage of investing in renewables in the SW of England is not having to pay extortionate charges to connect to the national grid.

scotland.gov.uk/.../...

"As a result of the strong locational pricing element in the charging methodology, generators in the North of Scotland are facing the highest charges in the UK which is £20.17 per Kilowatt in the North of Scotland, compared to subsidies of £5.87 per Kilowatt received by generators in Cornwall."
 
 
# edinburghdave 2012-01-24 00:19
At last

It is time the debate on English nationlism started. Unfortunately English nationalism has been hijacked by some pretty undesirable characters, such as the BNP (note the lack of distingtion between British and English in the title. The English seeing themselves as a seperate identitiy as a people can only be a positive for usScots Nationalists.

There is now a total political vacuum within English politics from the Left. Labour have totally and completely lost the plot. They are now a nothing party. It is this area where Like the SNP, an English nationalist party can take the impetus to stand up for the social well being of the English people in order to protect institutions that benefit English society, such as the NHS and the Post Office, but are being systematically dismantled in order to protect the financial well being of the richest square mile in the UK.
 
 
# .Scot 2012-01-24 00:44
Don't let the last embers of the British turn their inability to defend the unfair Union into a Scots versus Anglos fight. The British are homeless without a Parliament, a nation or a people. England will be set free by the Scots and they will sit right beside us at the UN and the EU. And it is probable that this corner of Europe will develop a firmer trading partnership based on dealing services, skills, technology people and resources.
 
 
# edinburghdave 2012-01-24 00:53
Oh absolutely. I see the start of this debate as a positive. I do however, have no illusions that there will be some negativity thrown our way. But this wis and will be due to both percieved unfairtnes, (Such as the "scrounging Scots myth) and actual unfairness such as the democratic deficit of the English not having thier own Parliament. The unionists know full well that as soon as England has it's own grown up devolved parliament that the union is as good as dead and buried.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-01-24 01:00
The gloves are off, at least by the Westmister Unionists. I can't believe all the false information and obfuscation coming from the Westminster government and the MSM.

Serves them right if the English people, indoctrinated in their false "Scots are subsidy junkies" tripe, mount a massive popular movement for English independence and kick Scotland out of the union!:D

Now, I don't have anything against the English, I have English friends and they're nice people, but I find the English amazingly ill-informed about Scotland. When I first visited England, I, a 20-yr old total foreigner knew more about "North Britain" than the people I met in England.

I first set foot in Scotland in 1992, after a couple of weeks in England. In England, the people I met hardly knew where Finland was, but the people I met in Scotland knew right away. Tapped their noses and talked about nasty bigger neighbours. Not in a bad way, just understanding that big countries get a bit big-headed and don't understand their smaller neighbours and their aspirations.

I still have some old newspaper clippings from that time from the biggest quality broadsheet in Finland. They devoted a whole page to Scotland (which they called a "region", which sparked a few indignant letters to the editor from Scots living in Finland). There was a picture of SNP youth wing activist Stuart Hosie and Shona Robinson, and another picture of a youthful (and slimmer) Alex Salmond, who said that now is the time to drum up Scotland and make it independent again, just look at what's happening in all the former Soviet Union states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania...)

Hard to believe that was 20 years ago.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-24 10:09
Lumilumi, we all have English friends who we are fond of and unfortunately we all know perfectly nice English people who are totally ignorant about Scotland. The English hear absolutely nothing about Scotland until there's something of international importance, e.g. Lockerbie.

It's not really their fault. They are ill-informed because of the British system, the London-centric view of the world. Those in London hardly know about anything outside the so-called home counties (home with respect to whose point of view?).

The most sickening thing about this London view is that they gush over any tiny country gaining independence, yet scoff in the most digusting way about the thought of Scotland doing the same.

Anyway, glad you like Scotland. Must make a trip to Finland some time. :)
 
 
# .Scot 2012-01-24 01:44
With Britain's harsh cuts to child benefits and shame-filled increases in homelessness, unemployment, bankruptcy and destitution added to plots to limit education, health and long life to nobles and imperialists dying with the Union, Scotland and England should both expect to begin to climb the index of human development where harsh Britain lags far behind Salmond's arc of prosperity.
2011 WORLD HUMAN DEVELOPMENT INDEX;
hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

  • 1. Norway

  • 3. Netherlands

  • 7. Ireland

  • 10. Sweden

  • 11. Switzerland

  • 14. Iceland

  • 16. Denmark

  • 18. Belgium

  • 19. Austria

  • 20. France

  • 22. Finland

  • 23. Spain

  • 24. Italy

  • 28. UK

  • 29. Greece
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-01-24 04:29
I'm concerned to find Finland behind France. We, after all, still have our AAA-rating. Because we're one of the few countries who've stuck to the Euro rules re: budget deficits (Finland has run a surplus most of Euro time), inflation, private and government borrowing. So of course we're incenced with the prolifigate southerners!

France probably rates better due to their more benign climate. :-)
 
 
# lozzie 2012-01-24 02:37
OFF TOPIC


It seems the Westminster think it would be wise to invest in renewables after all. Just not Scottish renewables.

clickgreen.org.uk/.../...

"Aside from marketing, a key advantage of the new park status will be to put the region at the head of the queue for Government cash.

Some £20 million has been ring-fenced in the marine energy development fund, an extra £1 billion has been added to the Regional Growth Fund and the £3 billion Green Investment Bank is expected to open shortly.

A second marine energy park is planned in the north of Scotland, but many think the South West has now stolen a march on its closest rival.

Ministers last year moved to end Scotland’s more favourable investment conditions by doubling the amount of subsidies lavished on the sector in England and Wales, creating parity for so-called Renewable Energy Certificates across the UK."



Now I don't grudge the SW of England a chance to grow their economy using their skills and resources. But for Westminster to publicly discourage renewable investment in Scotland (arguably the internationally recognized natural choice) Whilst at the same time subsidizing the same industry where there are safe coalition seats seems a bit hypocritical.

"Oliver Colvile, Conservative MP for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, said: "This is excellent news and clearly demonstrates that Plymouth's messages about wanting to rebalance the economy and the south west becoming the centre for marine renewable has been heard at the highest levels in Government. We still have a great deal more to do but it appears that we are on the right track. This is yet another example of how having 90 per cent of the MPs in the south west from the coalition parties is making sure our voice is being heard."



Of course one advantage of investing in renewables in the SW of England is not having to pay extortionate charges to connect to the national grid.

scotland.gov.uk/.../...

"As a result of the strong locational pricing element in the charging methodology, generators in the North of Scotland are facing the highest charges in the UK which is £20.17 per Kilowatt in the North of Scotland, compared to subsidies of £5.87 per Kilowatt received by generators in Cornwall."
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-24 07:03
I've posted several times recently that the lies would come back to bite them in the bum, but I didn't quite expect this scenario to play out as well as it has. Rising calls for an English parliament fueled by lies about an independent Scotland, absolutely Karma Louper.

In fact considering the amount of grief Westminster has passed our way in their inevitable divide and rule way, mibbies the SG should consider the same tactic by gently encouraging the English electorate toward independence. Give Cameron something to think about for a change.

For decades we've fought to dispell the divisive lies perpetrated in the name of the union. Constantly using a small voice to fight a united government and MSM when perhaps they've actually been doing a grand long term job of disolving the union themselves. The irony is just precious.

I would prefer to break the lies the old fashioned way by dispelling their myths very publically, but hey if the English people want to help in breaking Westminster power, who are we to stop them? :0)
 
 
# the wallace 2012-01-24 09:56
I think it would good for AS to appoint a minister for debunking unionist lies smears and scare stories.lol
 
 
# Marian 2012-01-24 09:56
It was the Labour Party who invented the gross untruth that Scotland was too poor to stand on its own for the purpose of frightening the Scots away from independence. They thought that to have the Scots believe they were financially incapable of existing without handouts from England would save the Union for Labour. They reasoned that after all, Labour were the party of Scotland, the party that the Scots believed and freely gave their vote to year on year for nothing in return.

Now the gross untruth has spread over the border and people who should know better are happy to propagate it without checking the veracity of it.

Over the last two years or so extremist unionists have fanned the flames of resentment south of the border with their tales of English taxes allegedly paying for Scottish luxuries while the English have to settle for less.

The unionists’ can’t back-track on that fantasy story now because it would show the Scots the truth of their wealth.

So spreading the gross untruth in England has created a backlash against the Scots. It is both ironic and sweet that the gross untruth invented by Labour to save the union could help be the cause of it's dissolution.
 
 
# Robabody 2012-01-24 14:39
Yes Marian and the really sad thing is, so many of our people still believe it.

It was NEVER about England and the ordinary English person, it was about the urine poor quality of the people sent to represent us. Well, they brought the lie into the world and they lived by that lie and now they will die by it.
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-01-24 11:12
Some stuff from today's Mail (English edition)

Name and address supplied writes: (I suspect this came from the editorial staff - it smacks of a planting of ideas)

I'm English but have lived in Scotland for 14 years and have got on well with members of my community. Following the argument between David Cameron and Alex Salmond, however, I've been told English people are no longer welcome in Scotland and will have to get out if it gets independence.

I'm truly frightened; should independence become a reality, will the English be "ethnically cleansed"? I think Salmond doesn't care so much about Scotland as he does for his own personal advancement. He wants to go down in history as "the man who broke the Union".

Another proud Scot, unionist, wrote in complaining that he and many like him who are living in other parts of the UK will be denied a vote in the referendum, (because they are likely to vote to retain the union, you understand, not simply because they are non-residents) whereas voting rights will be given to people who have recently settled in Scotland from "Eastern Europe or elsewhere". How dastardly that cunning plan is! "True Scots" expatriates must be given their right to have a say, he insists.
 
 
# maolbeatha 2012-01-24 12:47
Quoting Ken500:
Scotland raises £48Billion In tax

Block Grant £27Billion + £16Billion? Pensions etc = £43Billion

Scotland is underfunded £5Billion


Are these figures up to date and accurate?

I mean how does the unionist side argue aginst that?

Does is include ALL monies paid into Scotland? Benifits, etc etc.
Do they reply "ah but what about...."

If these points stand then surely thats the subsidy myth sunk for good?

How to sell that to the Scots and continue letting the English believe the myth?
 
 
# albion30 2012-01-24 16:47
Us English really do not for the most part have strong feelings about Scotland regardless of the West Lothian and subsidy questions. If you dislike our union then you should leave which is completely understandable and really should not upset anyone long term. Infact, I think more English want Scottish independence than you do so why not let us in on the vote and you will be certainly get what you wish for.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-24 19:58
The English are going to get a real shock when they realise how they have been lied to.
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-01-25 13:46
Here is an earlier bit of research which was very empowering at the time, and still relevant now:

"The Big Lie"


scottishpolitics.org/.../...
 

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