By G.A.Ponsonby
 
Unionist opposition parties were in disarray today after major confusion emerged over how to deal with Scotland’s independence referendum.
 
News that Labour’s London leaders have rejected the idea of wresting control of the ballot from the SNP follow indications last week that Tory PM David Cameron was considering pre-empting the Nationalists by forcing a ballot of his own.

However any suggestions of a Unionist pact were undermined after comments from Labour’s Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret Curran in which she described the idea as a “distraction”.

She said: “We’re playing Salmond’s game if we do this.  We have to put pressure on him to explain why he is delaying and delaying.  I would urge my colleagues to focus on that.”

The former MSP, now MP, argued that Unionists should concentrate instead on presenting the referendum timing as causing uncertainty for businesses.

She added: “Conversations about Westminster are a complete distraction.  Salmond won the election but he can’t be allowed to play around with the timing of the referendum.  There is substantial evidence that industry is getting worried about the delay.”

The comments are believed to be a reference to a controversial report compiled by London based financial firm Citigroup that warned against investing in Scotland’s renewable industry.  However the report’s conclusions were subsequently dismissed by several respected businesses and institutions including global investment firm Altium Securities.

Labour leader Ed Miliband confused matters further by appearing not to rule out a united London intervention at a later date.  Mr Miliband suggested that Labour might support a move to take control of a referendum in 18 months’ time.

Labour’s Holyrood leader Iain Gray though insisted that the Scottish government had the political mandate to call a referendum provided the ballot was properly run and was fair.  However Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie claimed that such a mandate was conditional on the ballot question being clarified “quickly”.

The confusion was further compounded yesterday when UK Chancellor George Osborne indicated that the independence referendum is in the hands of the Scottish government.
 
In a move that suggests more and more Unionists may be conceding they have no political mandate over Scotland’s constitutional future, the Tory Chancellor challenged Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond to clarify both the timing and the ballot question saying: “The ball’s in your court.”
 
Osborne’s comments come one week after a poll by the BBC suggested that the vast majority of Scots wish the Scottish parliament to wield more powers than are currently on offer from London.

They also came on the same day that a leading academic claimed that any such poll carried out by the Scottish government would not be legal.

A Scottish government spokesman dismissed the legality claims saying: “We are totally confident of the legal position, as confirmed by a range of legal experts, and will bring forward a Referendum Bill for the vote on Scotland’s future to take place in the second half of this parliament,”

The spokesman added:

“Everyone else, including the Prime Minister and Scottish Secretary, accepts the right of the Scottish Government and Parliament to hold the referendum.”

First Minister Alex Salmond has already indicated that he is open to a Devo-Max option being offered on the ballot paper.  According to a recent BBC poll the option is favoured by at least one third of the Scottish electorate.

The BBC survey showed that nearly two thirds of Scots are in favour of either full independence or control over all powers with the exception of foreign affairs and defence.

There is now growing speculation that the Tory/LibDem coalition might try to gain influence over the referendum by inserting a clause into the Scotland Bill that would restrict the Scottish government’s powers over the wording and options contained on any ballot paper.

However any such move would lead to accusations that the referendum had been hi-jacked through the back door and would increase the likelihood of the Bill being rejected by the Scottish parliament who will be given an opportunity to debate the proposed legislation before it is formally introduced.

In their election campaign the SNP pledged to hold a referendum in the second half of this parliamentary term.  Their manifesto also included an option for Devo-Max to feature on any ballot paper.

 

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Comments  

 
# Jim1320 2011-11-12 11:44
One is seriously tempted to go childish on this and do a Nelsonesque* "HaHa"

However, I will confine my comment to "remarkable"

*Simpsons for the uninitiated
 
 
# ds12 2011-11-12 11:54
This is brilliant,now we are the establishment its very amusing to sit back open a beer and watch them tearing themselves apart over this.
I've even heard some of them refer to the act of union ???? funny that, as the act of union has been broken by London so many times yet now they want to use it.
And quietly we work away raising money and planning for Scotlands biggest day in 700 years.
 
 
# scotsnavy 2011-11-12 11:55
This is my first post, so hi to everyone that reads it. I'm a supporter of independence, but see the SNP as a means to an end rather than an end in themselves if you know what I mean.

Westminster will never take control of the referendum as the unionists know this would get everyones back up and guarantee a result they could not stomach. All talk of it is bluster.

Though might I say let's bring it on. I cannot understand the need to wait till the 2nd half of the parliament. That's 3 more years until Tory rule throwing 3 more years oil money down the drain.
 
 
# RaboRuglen 2011-11-12 15:56
Hi SN,

I came to this thread later in the day and was disappointed to find that nobody had yet welcomed you. Let me put that right. You are most welcome indeed.

Please feel free to post again soon.

Regards,
 
 
# FREEDOM1 2011-11-12 16:04
Just Logged on WELCOME: scotsnavy
 
 
# Robabody 2011-11-12 16:09
Welcome SN and feel free to pile in
 
 
# tartanfever 2011-11-12 16:22
Yes, welcome along scotsnavy, hope you find the website stimulating.

I think a good number of posters here would agree that a healthy political situation would be to have strong parties debating well - unfortunately at present that isn't the case and as the SNP are the only ones offering a vote on independence, lets get that in the bag first then see what develops.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2011-11-12 17:18
Hello Scotsnavy,

Welcome to our little comment and debating chamber. I hope we see more of you.

Kindest regards,

Saltire Groppenslosh
 
 
# gt-cri 2011-11-12 18:16
Welcome scotsnavy, good to see you pin your colours to the mast early on (couldn't resist it)! :)

Methinks you've answered your own question. Another 3 years of Tories doing the same sort of thing they have been doing so far should ensure the result we all hope for, come the referendum. We're not there yet.
 
 
# Scottish republic 2011-11-12 20:39
Hi SN welcome

you are right but better maybe to let the SNP choose the moment that suits them. They have steered the course well so far and it's interesting that the Brit nats are desperate to have the referendum now, now, now.

The tide of events is in our favour and the Brit nats are screwing up everything they touc as well as privatising the NHS.

Given enough rope we might expect the will hang their union by the neck.
 
 
# Taldor83 2011-11-12 23:26
Welcome to the site! Always good to have new peeps on board!
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2011-11-13 08:12
Ceud mile failte, SN!

(I'm a bit on the tardy side, but thought I'd add my voice to the welcome chorus. Always room for another informed voice on here -- whatever your politics!)
 
 
# Marga B 2011-11-12 11:58
ds12 - indeed, the idea of Labour chumming up with the conservatives against the Scottish government doesn't sit well with a resurgence in Scotland in the local elections. What a mess!
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 13:12
Yes, this was my reading of it too.

I'd wager that if the Council Elections go badly for Labour they will be out backing Westminster for an early UK wide referendum.

Looks like they are trying to ensure they dont get tarred with a Troy Brush before the council elections in 2012.
 
 
# Caadfael 2011-11-12 15:47
They're aa "taurry-fingered" anyway!
 
 
# Scottish republic 2011-11-12 20:43
The Labour party is the political left-wing of a very right-wing Tory party and the authoritarian right-wing of the Tories.

They make ideal dance partners when all is said and done - they may as well join together to form one party.

Labourtory
 
 
# jaguar 2011-11-12 12:06
"She added: “Conversations about Westminster are a complete distraction. Salmond won the election but he can’t be allowed to play around with the timing of the referendum. There is substantial evidence that industry is getting worried about the delay.”"

How thick are these politicians? The Scottish Government has said time and time again that the referendum will be held in the second half of the current parliament. What part of that is so difficult to understand?

If anyone finds this too hard to understand, I suggest they should be looking for more suitable employment and retraining.
 
 
# Marga B 2011-11-12 18:29
"Salmond won the election but he can’t be allowed to play around with the timing of the referendum." How rude - can you even imagine them saying "Cameron won the election but he can't be allowed to ..." - oh hang on ... ;))
 
 
# Zed 2011-11-12 12:08
Curran said "There is substantial evidence that industry is getting worried about the delay.”

What evidence? The only people who seem to keep going on about a quick referendum are Unionist politicans.
And I haven't met a single person, not a single one, who's mentioned being troubled by the SNP not naming the date of the referendum.
 
 
# Jim1320 2011-11-12 12:13
Quoting Zed:
Curran said "There is substantial evidence that industry is getting worried about the delay.”

What evidence? The only people who seem to keep going on about a quick referendum are Unionist politicans.
And I haven't met a single person, not a single one, who's mentioned being troubled by the SNP not naming the date of the referendum.


Seems to me that it is the fuss made by the Unionist politicians that has caused minor upset in the markets, although inward investment in renewables continues apace so it is just a minor upset (far too minor for the Unionists' liking one suspects). It is politics pure and simple and the lies from Westminster are not even plausible.
 
 
# FREEDOM1 2011-11-12 16:10
Not all that long ago the Unionist politicans did not WANT a referendum. Now they know they will lose the ermine and a place at the trough they are spitting chips with panic. Poor souls!
 
 
# Callan 2011-11-13 01:40
Curran is one of these selfish politicians who thinks Scotland genuinely cannot survive on its own because of its uniquely-stupid-I-can't-survive-without-England-even-though-every-other-country-on-earth-can-itis. The companies on the other hand who will create jobs in an independent Scotland know this isn't true. When was the last time you heard a company saying it is far too dangerous to invest in Canada, Hong Kong or Australia because they don't have England's politicians making their financial decisions? The end of the union chapter in Scotland's history doesn't mean an end to the oil, water, food, whisky, computers, telecoms, tourism, tertiary education and renewables industries.
 
 
# Marian 2011-11-12 12:12
What is clear and certain now is that the SNP's promised referendum will be a once in a lifetime opportunity for Scots to vote on their political and economic future for there is now absolutely no doubt that Westminster will introduce their own legislation at some point or other to prevent the Scots government from ever being allowed to repeat this constitutional referendum again.
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 13:16
You are right Marian.

This is a ONCE in a lifetime thing.

The way I look at it is that if I can just change one person over to independence then its worth the effort.

We need to keep making others aware of Newsnet Scotland and other sources of information, especially the older generation that still typically get information from the printed press or the BBC.
 
 
# WilliamO 2011-11-12 13:40
I agree with you Sleekit and am continuing daily to make the point for independence with those of my ilk. There is no case for the Unionist one... not one! And by the way I do take umbrage at your reference to the older generation (I am over 70) and have been hammering on about independence for Scotland ever since I did my National Service so many moons ago. So please don't discount us - we vote too but at the same time are encouraged by the younger set.
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 15:32
Apologies for your umbrage but I am at a loss as to a suitable name for your generation.

Silver Fox's - Unfortunately this would seem to have overtures from a late night encrypted channel of the exotic type so it's no use.

Twighlighters - Unsuitable for a multitude of reasons, but not least the fact that it just brings to mind crazed vampire fans.

Golden Oldies - Since the creation of the Sit-com Benidorm the overtures for golden oldies would be mobility scooters and stand and tans. Good old Mel! So again no use as a widely used term of reference.

Of course I'm only joking. I will endeavour to use a more PC term in future.

In the meantime however, keep up the good work.
 
 
# FREEDOM1 2011-11-12 16:15
Don't worry Sleekit I am an old coger(71) and a nationalist to boot. I will be marching in the front down the Royal Mile with my Saltire waving come the day.
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 16:19
And on that day I hope to see you there!
 
 
# WilliamO 2011-11-12 16:31
Sleekit You don't need a 'suitable' name for our generation. We are, and insist on being, individuals much the same as yourself. So forget the sobriquets.. our suggested names will be fine. I do appreciate the attempt at humour and will continue to enjoy the camaraderie of these pages..... but forget the old part.... we count too and have been in the trenches for quite a while now.. come on Independence!
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 16:43
Hi WilliamO,

Truthfully, my post was more in reference to those of my parents generation that do not use online media but "real" newspapers or the BBC.

It is these people who never come across the bile directed at Scotland on the web or the rebuttals of misinformation that many posters spend time undertaking.

I was also referring to the higher percentages of support in lower aged generations but can see that your generation is probably one of the most important to convince as there is the biggest room for a swing.

At no point did I intend to infer that you did not count. I believe quite the opposite as it happens.
 
 
# tartanfever 2011-11-12 17:05
Brilliant ! You have to laugh, poor sleekit's getting a 'doing' here.

I think come the independence march you're going to be due these boys a whisky afterwards !
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 17:14
If Osbourne puts fuel duty up again I might have used the Whisky to fuel the car!!!!
 
 
# Robabody 2011-11-12 21:52
Buffties for Independence are us.....not got a great ring to it, but it'll do me.

ED Merchandise please
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2011-11-12 17:44
White Wolves?
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2011-11-12 17:45
Still in pre-moderation then?
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2011-11-12 17:36
I am always pleased to see anyone even approaching your age WilliamO that is online. My personal experience is that anyone that I know personally over the age of say, 60 isn't happy with using a PC. That's their perogative as I usually say. You're burning a trail Sir and I hope that others of your generation join in for all our sakes.

However, Sleekit is absolutely bang on with yourself and others like you still being a minority exception.

If more people of your generation went on-line, perhaps they would have their perceptions changed. As Sleekit quite rightly said "especially the older generation that still typically get information from the printed press or the BBC". And these sources are the greatest well of misinformation so you can imagine that their perceptions are moulded by say, a BBC spin or what they read in the unionist press. It's all a bit one sided.

Lang may yer lum reek.
 
 
# Grenscot 2011-11-12 19:15
Speaking as someone who left their 60th birthday behind longer than they care to remember I find this exchange quite amusing. The "auld yins" Putting on their "righteous indignation" caps and the "bairns" tiptoeing around, metaphorically speaking, for fear of offending. The reality is that there is a very sizeable community of seniors which is very computer literate and clearly you have stirred a few of us from our afternoon naps. I started working in a computerised environment 50 years ago, not as a computer professional but as an end user. We were the ones who delighted in getting our hands on the first Sinclair ZX 81s, the harbinger of the PC and the first ones to grapple with the arcane mysteries of Lotus 123. The "auld yins" are the computer generation. The "bairns" are the beneficiaries of what we started.
 
 
# Am Fògarrach 2011-11-12 20:08
Maybe for the last word on classifying by age, let me say I am nearing 76, and I want to emphasise that Am Fògarrach, while it is Gaelic, does NOT mean 'auld fogy'.

Saor Alba!
 
 
# exel 2011-11-12 22:04
Am Fògarrach 2011-11-12 20:08
"Maybe for the last word on classifying by age, let me say I am nearing 76, and I want to emphasise that Am Fògarrach, while it is Gaelic, does NOT mean 'auld fogy'.
Saor Alba!"

No it means, refugee, fugitive, exile or asylum seeker. Most of which are familiar to posters in this place.
 
 
# Robabody 2011-11-12 21:56
I was an ORIC man myself. "Poke this, if this equals that, then what equals when"....then I gave up and waited 20 years and bought a PC.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2011-11-13 02:49
I'm certainly no bairn myself Grenscot! Haha. I'm very pleased and enlightened by your post and that of WilliamO. I can honestly say that I neither tiptoe around anything nor would I seek to offend you either.

I think that the point that sleekit and myself was making was quite simple, and it is this;-

1. Even though there are good exceptions to the rule (and wonderfully, you are the exception amongst others), there is still a large section of the over 60's population who either dont want to be bothered with a PC, or, feel that it is "too complex" for them to take on board.

2. As a result, their knowledge of current affairs is closed down to the output of what they see on the TV or read in the newspapers, both of which tend to be pro-unionist.

It's a simple point really and one that doesn't just include the over 60's. It includes anyone who doesn't have access to a connected computer and that's a fair chunk of the population.

I started life as a Post Office Telephone Engineer and now have a few letters after my name in terms of communications so I was one of the ones who helped kick things off professionally for the "bairns". So in brief answer to that - thanks for all your help. It was you and people like you that spawned the explosion of personal computing by your enthusiasm.

I must pick you up on one point though, when you talk about a "very sizeable community", it is still in the minority when it comes to people who access the on-line community on a daily or hourly basis.

Sorry for having disturbed your afternoon naps (brilliant), I'll try not to do it again.

From a trainee "auld yin" haha

Keep smilin'
 
 
# cjmjr 2011-11-12 12:17
Perhaps the First Minister should have a sandwitch board made "referendum second half of this Parliment" and have somone walk up and down outside the Unionists just might get the idea.

Our Scotland Vote SNP
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 13:17
Thats a GREAT Idea...

We could also get the Unionists to wear one saying "The End is Nigh"
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2011-11-12 17:38
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH A
 
 
# whitburnsfinest 2011-11-13 01:57
Quoting Sleekit:
Thats a GREAT Idea...

We could also get the Unionists to wear one saying "The End is Nigh"







"Like" button!!! :-D
 
 
# fynesider 2011-11-15 10:52
Front of the board to read "When's the referendum due then Pete..?"
Back of the board to read "2nd half of this Parliament (if the word of the Eck is anything to go by..."

From an early Cromemco user....
 
 
# Scottish republic 2011-11-12 20:46
excellent idea
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2011-11-12 12:20
Mmmm

"Salmond won the election but he can’t be allowed to play around with the timing of the referendum. There is substantial evidence that industry is getting worried about the delay.”

So we cannot be Stair Heid before Holyrood decides???

I wonder if she would care to reveal what are her sources vis-a-vis the "substantial evidence" that industry is getting worried about her not getting to decide the date? Evidence please beyond the Citibank economist (ex- Tory economic strategist who works for a bank with big problems of their own, the CBI (Scotland branch) who represent heehaw of the cohort of Scottish based companies and few others and, errr.

Maybe she did a straw poll somewhere outside a London Club or within some bar in the Palace of Westminster. The BBC could be her soure as they have form in this.
 
 
# FREEDOM1 2011-11-12 16:22
Lupus Incomitatus, it is no business of Stair Heid when we hold the referendum. It is up to the Scottish Government to name the date. Also there will be plenty businesses coming to Scotland shortly. They will be queuing up to come to Scotland.They are not stupid! Stair Heid and the rest of them will be thrown out after Independence as the people of england will not be interested in them anymore.
 
 
# tartanfever 2011-11-12 16:26
I think stair heid has other things she should be concentrating on, like getting a leader in Scotland and then deciding if SLAB will follow their masters in Westminster by introducing University fees and paid prescriptions.

Working for the people ? that woman's deluded
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2011-11-12 16:32
Ther is a rumour, FREEDOM 1, that the Civil Sevice are drafting a clause into the Scotland Bill that will mandate any referendum on Independence to be a simple one question only.

Just a rumour like but, you know how many kites the onionists fly daily.
 
 
# Marga B 2011-11-12 18:34
Surely the Scotland Bill has constitutional status - wouldn't it be inappropriate to make such a circumstantial point in this bill?
 
 
# fynesider 2011-11-15 10:56
..." drafting a clause into the Scotland Bill that will mandate any referendum on Independence to be a simple one question only...."

From an ex-Weegie it's a dead simple question
Q, Do yees want it?
A. No multiple choice answers like "Maybes Aye, maybes naw" will be allowed!
 
 
# Barontorc 2011-11-12 12:22
The only way the UK Gov can force a referendum with a Scotland question would be to make it available to the whole UK.

The result of which would then offer the Scottish Gov the reason to take a Scotland only referendum if the UK settlement did not tick all Scotland's boxes.

The UK is not going to survive this and will fragment, it would be a far better controlled strategy for the UK Gov to plan to negotiate the dissolution of the UK with English and Scottish issues properly addressed.

That is an extremely remote to nil possibility given that the trough feeders would be required to give up all they've pulled together for themselves.

Englandshire are in an increasingly dire and very, very difficult scenario.

Perhaps their populous will be forced to take control.
 
 
# Jimmy The Pict 2011-11-12 14:48
Is there a reason Westminster can hold a Scotland only referendum?
 
 
# deepwater 2011-11-12 20:06
Yes - the Westminster parliament has jurisdiction throughout the entire UK.

However it must abide by international law.

So although it can usurp the referendum - it won't.
 
 
# bagonails 2011-11-12 12:58
We only have a treaty between each other, Scotland England, why should we bother about what Westminster says. It is, and always has been a treaty supposedly in equality, [I know I know ??]. Why do people except we are the lesser or inferior half, its time to hit back and TELL them what we intend to do, not the other way round, if we had a decent legal system in our country they might try for once to defend us instead of appearing to accept legalees munbo jumbo from Westminster. Oh I forgot they sneakily went along with the church of Scotland, the education establishment and the so called landowners in 1707, keeping their own independence while the people lost theirs, suppose its why they are all so silent.
 
 
# Holebender 2011-11-12 13:13
I don't know about sneaky, but it can certainly be argued that the continuing independence of Scots Law and the Church of Scotland (and, consequently, Scottish education) is the only reason we are in a position to regain our independence as a state today. The independence of Scottish institutions after 1707 kept the idea of Scotland alive and demonstrated differences. This prevented a unitary UK from emerging and taking root in the consciousness of the population and allowed Scots to continue to think of themselves as Scots.
 
 
# Scottish republic 2011-11-12 17:22
That, I believe, is correct.

It renders Scotland distinct and identifies a nation state.

It is a sickening thought that a certain bunch ignobles sold our native land right out from under us for personal profit.
Another sickening thought is David Cameron and his irritating arrogance that Scotland is the possession of the Brit nats to with as they please.

He has 3 distinct personalities that come to the fore:

1) the reasonable, okay 'call me Dave' person who helped the Tories win a minority government.

2) The unpleasant Etonian house boy who surfaces when the SNP ask a question he doesn't like and he's insulting, ignorant and arrogant

3) The truly unpleasant individual who hasn't surfaced yet but is the Tory Brit nat drum beater type who would do anything to kill off the referendum whether that action is democratic or dictatorial.

this is the same one who is busy privatising everything in sight - including the NHS though he said he wouldn't


It is reasonable to assume that he's a mix of all three and not a puzzle to be worked out.
 
 
# Marga B 2011-11-12 18:36
I presume at some point the Constitutional Court will have to decide on this point of the right to hold a referendum - will that make it binding, one way or another, or is there more to be said
 
 
# UpSpake 2011-11-12 13:02
The Unionists are running themselves ragged as almost whatevert they do to try to thwart the neverending rise of the SNP is that their track record and their rhetoric pretty much debars them from any serious consideration by the voters.
Whilst they tear themselves apart and elect non-descripts to lead them, they will be treated with initial respect by Mr.AS until he tires of their childish snipes at the democratically elected administration and rips them apart.
The carnage will be most entertaining to watch.
 
 
# Rafiki 2011-11-12 13:02
Wee sleekit cooerin timorous beastie
Whit a panic's in thy breastie.
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 13:23
I'm not wee!

I'm not Panicking!

_______________ _______________ _______

Maybe you mean...

Big Hulkin Wastemonster Beastie
Full o'panic their so feartie

:-)
 
 
# gedguy2 2011-11-12 13:44
lol
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2011-11-13 07:32
Ah neer thocht o ye as bein ower 'timorous' neither, Sleekit!
 
 
# clootie 2011-11-12 13:04
Do not underestimate the co-ordinating ability of the mandarins at the heart of London.

The same breed who deveveloped the policies for building the empire.
For example - ensure by cultural invasion the "inferiorisation " of the invaded - it did not matter if it was Africa,India OR Ireland and Scotland.

Cultural invasion inables the traditional ways on living as being identified as backward. It is essential to this process that those invaded become convinced of their intrinsic inferiority.

The Romans did it by awarding land to local soldiers for their service and they therefore remained loyal to Rome. They did it by the population wishing to copy the Roman style and habits as these were more "advanced" than the local lifestyle. They demonstrated their superiority with grandbuildings and festivals. Do those in modern society really belief they are superior to a tribe living in the Amazon jungle because they have a TV.

Do not forget we have been conditioned for 300 years. Our values have been changed to mimic the occupier. The rewards may now be ermine instead of land and for some a pat on the head will suffice but the real power is not the unionist politicians - It is the real power behind them who work in the shadows.

They will feed the ammo through to be fired. Do not get comfortable this is going to get messy!
 
 
# gedguy2 2011-11-12 13:43
Fair summing up.
 
 
# J Wil 2011-11-12 15:09
"traditional ways on living as being identified as backward. It is essential to this process that those invaded become convinced of their intrinsic inferiority"

If it's backward for us, is it also backward for them. Witness the culture and tradition in the Lord Mayor's show today.

BTW is Scotland donating money to this pageant?
 
 
# FREEDOM1 2011-11-12 16:31
Yes a maybe a little Cultural invasion e.g Soapies but at least we are not 'Morris dancing' yet, God Forbid.
 
 
# Angus Ogg 2011-11-13 09:48
Quoting clootie:
Do not underestimate the co-ordinating ability of the mandarins at the heart of London.

The same breed who deveveloped the policies for building the empire.
For example - ensure by cultural invasion the "inferiorisation " of the invaded - it did not matter if it was Africa,India OR Ireland and Scotland.

Cultural invasion inables the traditional ways on living as being identified as backward. It is essential to this process that those invaded become convinced of their intrinsic inferiority.

The Romans did it by awarding land to local soldiers for their service and they therefore remained loyal to Rome. They did it by the population wishing to copy the Roman style and habits as these were more "advanced" than the local lifestyle. They demonstrated their superiority with grandbuildings and festivals. Do those in modern society really belief they are superior to a tribe living in the Amazon jungle because they have a TV.

Do not forget we have been conditioned for 300 years. Our values have been changed to mimic the occupier. The rewards may now be ermine instead of land and for some a pat on the head will suffice but the real power is not the unionist politicians - It is the real power behind them who work in the shadows.

They will feed the ammo through to be fired. Do not get comfortable this is going to get messy!



Ah but the Romans never had the Internet. The significance of this medium we are all sharing opinions on has IMHO, changed the way information is filtered in to the general populace. The other significant thing is that the voters most likely to vote for independence are of the younger variety in general. And it is these young uns who are getting their diet of information here, which is why the Unionist cabal are so incensed and full of acrimony when they are seen posting on these forums.

If you look at recent out bursts, Iain Grays red faced shouty performance in his speech to their one day conference in Glasgow. Bleating like an orphaned lamb about the nasty Cybernats, having the temerity to go on line and question his appearance, and his dire stumbling around in Holyrood, like a drunk looking for his door keys. His speech was meant to be a winding down and handing over to the next generation of leader who ever they are unfortunate enough to be. Instead it was a bizarre bitter and acrimonious rant, which left him even more isolated.

Then we had Cochrane in the Telegraph picking up the cudgel and on the same theme implying that Eck has to get a grip of the Cybernats. Whilst belly aching about our so called beastly comments.

What is remarkable in all of this is that the comments made by the Unionist cabal are miraculously invisible. Anyone who has read these forums will have seen them, and they are extreme, and offensive in the main. The hypocrite Cochrane has himself compared Alex Salmond to Mussolini, and yet he has the front to complain about Cybernats.

My point is this, the Unionist cabal know fine well how important this internet is and how widely read are these forums. They know that gone are the days when they could depend on the Unionist friendly MSM to publish an article full of lies and propaganda and then not to have it challenged at all. Now articles are challenged almost instantly.

Just look at how Blether With Brian and the Douglas Fraser blogs have now closed down all comments. WHY? Simply because the overwhelming weight of opinion in the comments was pro SNP and Independece, hardly a post could be seen from a Unionists supporter. WHY? because the power of the argument lies with the SNP and the Independence community. The Telegraph to be fair is quite liberal in it's moderation policy when comments are allowed on Cochranes babbling lies. I would urge you all to go there and sign on to comments, do it through DISQUS. You will be able to shoot them down like Turkeys, unless that is you mention Lord Foulkes, then it is instant death.


Cybernat 43 over and out ;o)))))




PS Welcome to all newbies who I have not welcomed ;o))))))))))))) )
 
 
# exel 2011-11-13 10:59
Angus Ogg 2011-11-13 09:48
“Ah but the Romans never had the Internet. The significance of this medium we are all sharing opinions on has IMHO, changed the way information is filtered in to the general populace. The other significant thing is that the voters most likely to vote for independence are of the younger variety in general. And it is these young uns who are getting their diet of information here, which is why the Unionist cabal are so incensed and full of acrimony when they are seen posting on these forums.”

The operative word being “FILTERED” Angus. You and people like you continually “Twitter” on about the msm as if it is some sort of “fifth column” out to put Scotland down.

In my opinion the reasons the Romans got their message across were many. The most significant being, by example and by force of arms, the latter is not very attractive to the “young uns”, of our internet age.

The internet is a remarkable medium, informed opinion from a huge variety of sources can be obtained almost instantaneously . It allows us to form our own opinions and discus them.

Blog sites have their place when the information source is open and attributable; others like (like NNS) are much less attractive, IMHO
 
 
# Angus Ogg 2011-11-13 22:03
Quoting exel:
Angus Ogg 2011-11-13 09:48
“Ah but the Romans never had the Internet. The significance of this medium we are all sharing opinions on has IMHO, changed the way information is filtered in to the general populace. The other significant thing is that the voters most likely to vote for independence are of the younger variety in general. And it is these young uns who are getting their diet of information here, which is why the Unionist cabal are so incensed and full of acrimony when they are seen posting on these forums.”

The operative word being “FILTERED” Angus. You and people like you continually “Twitter” on about the msm as if it is some sort of “fifth column” out to put Scotland down.

In my opinion the reasons the Romans got their message across were many. The most significant being, by example and by force of arms, the latter is not very attractive to the “young uns”, of our internet age.

The internet is a remarkable medium, informed opinion from a huge variety of sources can be obtained almost instantaneously . It allows us to form our own opinions and discus them.

Blog sites have their place when the information source is open and attributable; others like (like NNS) are much less attractive, IMHO






If you are going to communicate with me please try and not be under the influence as it detracts from what ever point you may have thought you could make.

Please do not trouble me until you are sober.
 
 
# exel 2011-11-13 22:26
Angus Ogg 2011-11-13 22:03
No problem.
 
 
# JRTomlin 2011-11-13 22:12
Of course, NNS is less attractive to you since people here don't agree that having an elected government is ruling by "diktat".
 
 
# gedguy2 2011-11-12 13:19
Here we go. The Unionists are bricking it because there is no political stance that they can take without AS ripping them to pieces. What is the Unionist technique to try and put off the Scottish people from having a referendum? The old shotgun approach hoping that something will hit the SNP. Obviously they haven't been paying attention to Ironclad Salmond and his ability to return the fire that the unionists are just starting to pour onto him.
 
 
# daveniz 2011-11-12 13:45
found an app on android market which will be intresting search Scottish government will actually tell you everything the Scottish government is doing!
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2011-11-12 17:13
Its available on iPhone too.

Has the idea of a Newsnet app been considered?
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 17:18
I was thinking about this yesterday.

Creating an App that could be downloaded free then targeting it to students and see how it goes from there???

The best apps move by word of mouth (word of internet)

Does anyone know someone that could achieve this?
 
 
# clootie 2011-11-12 23:47
Hold on - remember George V1 was still alive when I was a nipper, I still have my coronation toys! Go easy on the apps for my generation!
 
 
# Shug 2011-11-12 13:49
The Unionist parties are correct I think Alex needs to set the questions as soon as possible. For clarity the questions should be;
Do you want to continue sending all oil revenues to London to maintain their economy.
A simple yes or no will suffice
 
 
# Scottish republic 2011-11-12 13:51
Quote:
The former MSP, now MP, argued that Unionists should concentrate instead on presenting the referendum timing as causing uncertainty for businesses.


Labourites doing all they can to handle the fact that they are failures and know it.

The SNP decides, not the whims of the Brit nats.
 
 
# jafurn 2011-11-12 15:28
Quoting Scottish republic:
Quote:
The former MSP, now MP, argued that Unionists should concentrate instead on presenting the referendum timing as causing uncertainty for businesses.


Labourites doing all they can to handle the fact that they are failures and know it.

The SNP decides, not the whims of the Brit nats.


This ,again ,shows labour for what they are.
Now if she could have said ..

"The former MSP, now MP, argued that Unionists should concentrate instead on DEMONSTRATING the referendum timing as causing uncertainty for businesses."
However ,as usual, they are resorting to promoting fear and uncertainty.
 
 
# bringiton 2011-11-12 13:51
As most of on here know,this is all about trying to get the Scottish Government to show it's hand.
What question is going to be asked and when?
Wouldn't be surprised,after the expected economic carnage of the next few years,if the question is simply a straight Yes or No but we shall see.
 
 
# RaboRuglen 2011-11-12 16:28
Hi bringiton,

Of course there is only going to be one question in the referendum, because the Unionists will not be able to agree amongst themselves what the Devo-max option should be, and even if they could get that far they will not be able to agree if it should be implemented without a further referendum?

In the meantime enjoy the fireworks!

Regards,
 
 
# doe 2011-11-12 13:54
This has to be the best comment I've seen on this so far (stolen from Facebook):

Ron Edinburgh as the cold war heats up, the unionist argument is based on a monster living under my bed! I'm kind of disappointed that the unionist are incapable of an intellectual argument on independence! will their next phase of attack be that their dad is bigger than mine??
 
 
# clootie 2011-11-12 14:21
doe

That's what worries me - I have no concerns about those who read newsnet. It's those undecided who get told bedtime scary stories by the msm about billions to join the Euro post independence or electricity bills will rise 1000% etc. We all know it is nonsense but it does work and they know it! The only difference this time around is that we do have some alternative outlets - but not much and at the moment not enough.
I had a conversation just recently with a tory who was concerned about not being able to visit relatives in England without a passport and that we are not big enough to defend ourselves in a war - sometimes (just sometimes) I feel like giving up.

The scary stories work because change worries people. Scary stories are designed to achieve the mindset "If in doubt keep the status quo"

Scary stories is all they have!
 
 
# Scottish republic 2011-11-12 17:25
I like the comment
 
 
# sid 2011-11-12 14:39
afternoon,all i can see is the unionists panicking as the reality finally hits home . the first minister did not just pluck the date for the referendum out of the sky. by the time the referendum comes around it won't matter one jot how the questions are worded or indeed how many questions there will be because the people of Scotland will be under no illusion as to what this tory government in England are actually all about by then. there plans will be in full flow by then hence the demand to have the vote now.
Sid
 
 
# EdinScot 2011-11-12 14:53
The former MSP, now MP, argued that Unionists should concentrate instead on presenting the referendum timing as causing uncertainty for businesses.

There we have it, Curran not wanting to recognise the mandate handed by the Scottish people to the SNP who said in their manifesto that they would hold the referendum in the second half of their term were they elected to Government, clear for all to see.

Curran is a hypocrite, she would be the first to open her big mouth if Salmond reneged on that manifesto pledge. Have Labour learnt nothing from their defeat in may! They would gladly cause carnage to Scotlands economy and our reputation by instigating fake fears from the business community. Trouble is, their panic and desperation are getting to the stage that people can see them for what they are. Time to spread the news what Labour are all about and cause them even more damage.

As for the people beleiving the Unionist smears and lies of the msm. That changed in 2007 and got blown out the water big style in 2011. Therein lies the danger for the Unionist parties. Keep the faith.
 
 
# Scottish republic 2011-11-12 20:03
Had it been Curran's party that had said the second part of a parliamentary term, she would be hissing, her head spinning on its shoulders and Labourite blue stuff would be projectile vommiting out of her in defense of that choice.

But the SNP are being indecisive in her currant view.

Hypocrite who went from a nice cosy job as a Labourite MSP to an even more cosy job as an MSP and now her representation of her constituents is to defend the last remnants of British empire mentality.
 
 
# ButeHouse 2011-11-12 15:56
Reactive Intelligence is as low as it gets and the unionists are in full flight right now, reacting furiously as they run up and down the battle lines sabre rattling and uttering death defying squawks into the November air.

Meanwhile the SNP Government remains calm and sticks to what was in its manifesto. Salmond looks more Statesmanlike every day and from abroad Scotland is looking more like an Independent country every day.

Westminster and its motley collection of unionists look more and more ragged with each passing day.

This has been the most serious bout of sabre rattling since May and it has been repelled. It won't be the last. But facts are ching that winnie ding as they say in the North East (well I think that's what they say).

To think that Salmond and co would make the most monumental error in proclaiming their intention to have a Referendum which they had no legal right to have would be ludicrous in the extreme and completely out of character.

The Referendum will take place and Westminster will accept the result, it's called democracy.

Personally, I'm leaning towards VOTING YES :0) How about you?
 
 
# scotus 2011-11-12 16:02
"facts are ching that winnie ding as they say in the North East "

Actually that would be "chiels that winna ding" and I think you'll find it was a fellow from the South East that coined that one! ;0)
 
 
# scotus 2011-11-12 16:04
or even the South West!
 
 
# Barontorc 2011-11-12 16:55
And what a glorious blog would Rabbie keep, if he was alive at this crucial time in Scotland's history!

The parcel o' rogues would get a real bleachin!!
 
 
# ButeHouse 2011-11-12 18:59
Bless you for that Scotus.....would be Scotus as in ex of Corstorphine Hill or simply Duns Scotus?

But surely 'chiels that winna ding' is a North east phrase, Eberdeen an aw that?
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-12 16:14
The upcoming Council elections will a "watershed moment" for labour. If they do anywhere near as badly as the scottish parliamentary elections or if they lose glasgow then they will be consigned to extinction like the tories and the libdems in Scotland.
 
 
# raisethegame 2011-11-12 16:48
She(Mags)said: “We’re playing Salmond’s game if we do this. We have to put pressure on him to explain why he is delaying and delaying. I would urge my colleagues to focus on that.”
You've got the wrang focus Mags. Make your case for staying in the Union and forget your obsession with dates.

This gave me a laugh - Nick Cohen's piece in The Spectator "The Strange Death of Scottish Nationalism". The comments alone are worth a read!
spectator.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Barontorc 2011-11-12 17:37
Ah,yes! Prof Tom Gallagher. Wasn't there a program on telly about him called "Shameless"?
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2011-11-12 17:43
Excellent positive case for the union: I have a Scottish mother and an English father and I dont want them to become foreigners. AS might as well give up now in the face of such overwhelming evidence! lol
 
 
# oldnat 2011-11-12 18:09
Quite right. My grandsons have a Scottish father and an American mother. Clearly, they can't survive unless Scotland becomes politically conjoined to the USA (well, Blair did his best to create that very situation!)
 
 
# gus1940 2011-11-12 17:08
On reading The Scotsman this morning on their disastrously useless 'improved ' web site they were triumphantly splashing the latest 'report' referred to above from a 'leading academic' questioning the legality of any referendum carried out by our SNP Majority Government.

I duly posted a comment and a short while ago went back on to the site to see what other comments had been made.

Funnily enough all reference to the item concerning the 'report' had disappeared which raises the question Why?
 
 
# Sleekit 2011-11-12 17:26
The missing article is probably hidden under a sub section

scotsman.com/.../...

Is this it?

It is more worrying that the Scotsman are allowing Identity Theft of posters on the site.

Recently I've noted that when a thread turns against them the "fakies" turn up and post as those already there to discredit them and snarl up debate.

When you combine it with the newest posts always showing first it looks to anyone joining the thread that its just a slagging match.

Not good.
 
 
# roboftheburnawn 2011-11-12 17:17
O/T - Heard that our very own NS was out and about in Glasgow's West End.

That's why we soaring high above the Unionist Politician's, all they can do is look up and ask _ How did they get so far above us .

Saor Alba
 
 
# Peat Worrier 2011-11-12 17:26
Befuddled or skeptical about recent comments in the press from legal experts, suggesting Holyrood's independence referendum may be unlawful? I have composed this, I hope provides a straightforward and comprehensible guide to the arguments, generating this legal conundrum...

.../adam-tomkins-unionist-stooge.html
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2011-11-12 17:44
For Magrat Curran whose task it is to keep check of 'cybernattery' the answers to your mistress' hysterics are:

When: second half on the current Holyrood parliamentary cycle

Question - negotiate Scottish Independence yea or nay

If the Unionist numpties come up with a realistic bill for FFA then you will have the option of a second vote: status quo or FFA.

I know Magrat Currant finds this very confusing but you will be able to vote Yes to independence and yes to FFA - if the Unionists bring forward a competent bill before the referendum. You could also vote No to independence and yes to FFA.

It is a strange device which Unionists struggle over called: Letting the sovereign people of Scotland make an informed, democratic choice about their future.

MJM, your post has been edited. Please stop it with the petty name-calling. If you're going to criticise Ms Curran do it in an intelligent way.
 
 
# J Wil 2011-11-12 17:56
Labour don't want to be seen consorting with the Tories and they don't want to be heard discussing independence.

They are between a rock and a hard place.
 
 
# exel 2011-11-12 18:11
“Their manifesto also included an option for Devo-Max to feature on any ballot paper.”

I must have missed that line, sentence or paragraph in the SNP manifesto.
 
 
# exel 2011-11-12 18:44
“First Minister Alex Salmond has already indicated that he is open to a Devo-Max option being offered on the ballot paper.”

Would this have anything to do with: The 2010 Scottish Social Attitudes Survey core finding was that just 28% of respondents supported Scottish independence, a lower level than in two recent social attitude studies. A majority support "devo max" (maximum devolution) with 60% of respondents wanting the Scottish Parliament to control Scotland's £18 billion welfare bill (including power over public pensions and benefits), and a majority (59%) also supported taxation levels being decided in Edinburgh rather than London.[3] This goes further than the conclusions of the Calman Report.
 
 
# Angus Ogg 2011-11-13 22:05
Quoting exel:
“First Minister Alex Salmond has already indicated that he is open to a Devo-Max option being offered on the ballot paper.”

Would this have anything to do with: The 2010 Scottish Social Attitudes Survey core finding was that just 28% of respondents supported Scottish independence, a lower level than in two recent social attitude studies. A majority support "devo max" (maximum devolution) with 60% of respondents wanting the Scottish Parliament to control Scotland's £18 billion welfare bill (including power over public pensions and benefits), and a majority (59%) also supported taxation levels being decided in Edinburgh rather than London.[3] This goes further than the conclusions of the Calman Report.




There there, matron will be round soon.
 
 
# Marga B 2011-11-12 18:46
For a revealing analysis by Edinburgh University School of Social and Political Science, of how the SNP is playing its (lack of) real powers to maximum advantage in a specific field (climate change) in its struggle to get out of the box, and the Labour government's attempts to deal with them, here's a link to an article (2009 so pre-Cameron but still of interest I think):

"Intergovernment al politics and climate change: Scotland, UK, EU"

Just put this in the search box and the article in word appears asking to be downloaded:

Scotigrccworksh op09-1
 
 
# Wave Machine 2011-11-12 18:50
David Cameron is passing up a fantastic opportunity to be seen as a forward thinking statesman.

The proposed Devo Max question is a golden opportunity to move his current UK into another guise. If I were him and looking at the whole picture from a Tory perspective, but with a dash of realism, I would see that the status quo is not an option and cannot remain as such. So what do I do?

Well, use an additional question that encompasses an outcome that potentially results in a loose relationship between Scotland and England on most levels but preserves fundamentals such as defence and foreign affairs. Thus further preserving the credibility on the world stage of London and Westminster.

From a certain viewpoint Devo Max can be seen as a form of federalism, so why not take some credit and build something new. This must have occurred to the Conservative Party thinkers and the fact that it has not receieved much, if any debate, suggests to me that there is a hidden game of poker going on right in front our our collective noses and it's a game of who will blink first.

The Devo Max question has been floated as bait. It's there for anyone to grasp and mold as they seem fit. It just takes some courage to do this, but I suspect that there is a fear in the minds of some Unionists that taking any initiative with this will be seen as weakness and be open to critics from the more conservative (small "c" please note) Unionists who desperately wish to preserve the status quo at all costs.

The whole thing is wrapped up in economics and access to cash, not some Brit Nat flag wrapping exercise. However, there may be an unforseen joker in this game and that is the current Euro crisis. It doesn't take a genius to see that the present UK economic framework is very weak, based as it is on a Financial services model.

Here's a guilt edged opportunity for someone with guts to take the realtionships within the current UK to another level and to wrap it all up with a justification steeped in a rationale derived form the current Euro meltdown.

Use Devo Max question to remold the social, political and economic relationships between the current UK partners. Paint it in bold colours, selling it as a positive. Scotland gets more powers, London preserves some credibility, you have a model for intra country relationships that could be a role model for other countries.

Then again, perhaps I giving the potential for creative thinking among some Unionists to much postivity.
 
 
# exel 2011-11-12 18:53
Mad Jock McMad 2011-11-12 17:44
"If the Unionist numpties come up with a realistic bill for FFA then you will have the option of a second vote: status quo or FFA."

You know perfectly well that FFA or devomax will never see the light of day on a referendum paper. This is the fantasy of the LIB/Dem wing of the SNP.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2011-11-12 19:06
I am hoping Cameron will fail to bring forward any White Paper on the subject of FFA. As an old fashioned Liberal, Menzies Campbell's attempt to lift the shrouds off a very dead Liberal 'home rule' concept is one of desperation - the time for that was 2007.

I further sense the desperation in the Unionist camp over on Lallands Peat Worrier's blog where claims are being made that Cameron will use section 5 of the 1999 Scotland Act and a legal challenge via Supreme Court to stop the SNP's referendum plans.
 
 
# tartanfever 2011-11-12 20:27
Ahh Sir Ming - laughed at his performance on the politics show last Sunday when asked about Liberal 'Home Rule' - he says, we're working on it and not rushing it despite the claims for them to get a move on. How long have they had now ? I would think longer than Ming has been alive.

Unionist camps are just stirring the pot up with this anti-democratic referendum nonsense, if they actually went through with it they would just be shooting themselves in the foot. The people would be out in the streets all over Scotland.
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-12 19:14
labour have to be TOTALLY anti-independence and anti-devomax as anything else is suicide for them.
They have to tray and make us keep the status quo as anything else means the loss of 50+ seats at westminister and the demise of the labour party.
 
 
# Fungus 2011-11-12 19:22
Personally I'm pleased that Stairheid seems to be leading the debate. I'm now confident of booking my place at the Independence Day party.
 
 
# truth 2011-11-12 19:41
One thought did cross my mind. What if the Scottish Govt decided to hold a referendum on when the referendum should be?

I'd love to see how the britnats would react if we voted for right away!

Would they interpret this as the britnats or the scotnats wanting their say?

Anyway, it's just a thought and not an action I'd encourage.
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-12 20:39
I just noticed that the people who live in scotland and who are in favour of independence are the only people who are looking forward to a positive future.
Makes a change from the unionist doom and gloom brigade.
 
 
# oldnat 2011-11-12 21:23
Interesting observation - and quite true.
 
 
# Marga B 2011-11-12 20:45
A possible couple of scenarios suddenly flashed through my mind whereby Labour have just seen the advantage of being in opposition, in both parliaments.

If as is being suggested, the referendum's legality is an unknown factor, the issue is almost certain to blow up in someone's face.

1. If the Scottish government's stance proves to be brinkmanship and its legal advice is disclosed as finding that the referendum is illegal, bang goes its signature credibility.

2. If the Westminster government makes a hash of its handling of the issue without succeeding in calling the Scottish government's bluff, bang goes Scotland or at least a nasty situation develops.

Could Labour not be getting out from under to reap the benefits, which in either of scenarios 1 or 2, would be a win-win situation for them?

But are Labour that clever? (or more likely my scenarios complete fantasy, based as they are on a brain wave from a non-resident).
 
 
# Kinghob 2011-11-12 21:00
I the four years the unionists were for or against a referendum (depending on their rather lame thinking at any given time) the legality was never questioned and to do so now is merely fear and desperation.
 
 
# exel 2011-11-12 21:57
Wave Machine 2011-11-12 18:50
“From a certain viewpoint Devo Max can be seen as a form of federalism, so why not take some credit and build something new. This must have occurred to the Conservative Party thinkers and the fact that it has not receieved much, if any debate, suggests to me that there is a hidden game of poker going on right in front our our collective noses and it's a game of who will blink first.”

Yes devo max is a form of federalism, the form of federalism least needed by the people of UK.

It leaves the people of England, without a state parliament, with no regional autonomy over fiscal matters and still subject to the party diktat of Westminster. It leaves Wales and Northern Ireland with no fiscal powers, no state parliament and the existing assemblies still subject to Westminster.

Scotland surprise, surprise will have a unicameral state parliament to practice the same party diktat from Holyrood. It is no surprise that no UK party will contemplate such a move.

Just what the SNP require, power to do what Westminster does now. Spend Scotlands taxes how they wish.
 
 
# roboftheburnawn 2011-11-12 22:15
Saturday evening, a glass of red wine in my hand, sitting comfortably on the couch ....... waiting for Independence.

If Carls...g done Independencies, this would be the best in the World
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2011-11-12 22:30
Good one
 
 
# exel 2011-11-12 22:33
Grenscot 2011-11-12 19:15
I agree totally, like you I have been working with “computers” for over 50 years.

I have always regarded them as tools for the betterment of mankind. Not as tools for “TOOLS” who would not know how to use them for such an unselfish end.
 
 
# roboftheburnawn 2011-11-12 22:35
Patrick Mercer ( Tory MP ) - I salute you

you'll find out !!!
 
 
# garyjc 2011-11-12 22:42
oh I so hope it's true - huffington post.
 
 
# roboftheburnawn 2011-11-12 22:48
Think it's been recorded - ha-haw ( Nelson from the Simpson's style )
 
 
# patrickotic 2011-11-12 22:43
I see that exel is still clutching at straws here. I think you need to look at polling results over a few months to see if their is a 'Trend' and all the trends put 'Independence' growing month by month. the most worrying thing for people like exel, is that as the trend support for independence is growing, the trend support for unionism is falling away. wont be long 'till we meet them on their way down.
 
 
# exel 2011-11-13 00:38
Quoting patrickotic:
I see that exel is still clutching at straws here. I think you need to look at polling results over a few months to see if their is a 'Trend' and all the trends put 'Independence' growing month by month. the most worrying thing for people like exel, is that as the trend support for independence is growing, the trend support for unionism is falling away. wont be long 'till we meet them on their way down.


A public opinion poll carried out at the end of October 2011 for the BBC Politics Show indicated that devo-max was the most popular option with Scottish voters: 33% backed devo-max, 28% supported independence and 29% backed no further constitutional change.
 
 
# patrickotic 2011-11-13 08:25
Quoting exel:
Quoting patrickotic:
I see that exel is still clutching at straws here. I think you need to look at polling results over a few months to see if their is a 'Trend' and all the trends put 'Independence' growing month by month. the most worrying thing for people like exel, is that as the trend support for independence is growing, the trend support for unionism is falling away. wont be long 'till we meet them on their way down.


A public opinion poll carried out at the end of October 2011 for the BBC Politics Show indicated that devo-max was the most popular option with Scottish voters: 33% backed devo-max, 28% supported independence and 29% backed no further constitutional change.

That may be the case in this bbc poll exel, but it's only one poll. To ensure an accurate look at how the people of Scotland are responding to the question of independence, you need to look at a number of different polls and look for the 'TREND' that emerges. Whenever this is done it shows an increase for independence as well as a decrease for unionism. the 'Don't knows' remain roughly the same. Now I'm no expert at analyzing the polling date, but I doubt if many people are switching straight from supporting the union to supporting independence, but what seems to be happening is that people who have believed in the union are starting to doubt this belief and switching to 'don't knows' as people who have been 'don't knows' seem to be starting to plunge for independence. If I supported the union I would be concerned that the tactics of sending libdem poodles north to insult Scotland as well as the increasingly desperate insults from westminster, is having the effect of convincing Scots, that independence is the only 'Self Respecting' option left for Scotland. what the past few months has proven once and for all, is that wesminster has utter contempt for Scotland.
 
 
# macduff 2011-11-12 22:48
My first post but not my last.
I am clear as to when the referendum is to be held so why are the unionist parties so unsure. As to the question, let us make full use of the precedent set in 1979 and use the 40% rule to our advantage. The question would be along the lines of "do you wish Scotland to remain part of the current political union?" Yes or No.
That 40% rule should ensure victory to us and we gain our independence.
Would this work or have I missed out something obvious?
 
 
# roboftheburnawn 2011-11-12 22:52
Welcome Macduff- I'll leave this one to the more intellectual friends here
 
 
# clootie 2011-11-12 23:54
I'm interested - how do you define intellectual?
 
 
# Taldor83 2011-11-13 00:09
Welcome! Always good to have more people around :)
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2011-11-13 11:29
Failte!

That's definitely a cunning plan if ever I heard one. Lead on, MacDuff (sorry I did try, but I just couldn't resist it)!
 
 
# Taldor83 2011-11-12 23:24
Slightly O/T but I saw this on a friend's FB and stole it...Thought you'd all appreciate it!

"Can you imagine working for a company that only has a little more than 635 employees, but, has the following employee statistics..

29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
9 have been accused of writing bad cheques
... 17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year

and,

collectively, this year alone, they have cost the British tax payer
£92,993,748 in expenses!

Which organisation is this?

It's the 635 members of the House of Commons."

Shame I can't fit it to twitter!
 
 
# scot1alba 2011-11-13 08:09
She added: “Conversations about Westminster are a complete distraction. Salmond won the election but he can’t be allowed to play around with the timing of the referendum. There is substantial evidence that industry is getting worried about the delay.”

Bliar won the Westminster election and then took us into an illegal war. I didn't hear Mrs Curran voicing concern then. The SNP are doing a great job. Keep it up. There is only one political party that has Scotland's interests first. Anyone else has another agenda. NAE LIMITS!
 
 
# Louperdowg 2011-11-13 08:50
Wasn't there going to be a referendum on the Euro?

Maybe she would like to focus on that.

Also, if she is short of things to worry about I would suggest that she gets her dander up and gets stuck into George Osborne about why he is denying Scotland £100m of its money.

We were urged to vote Labour so that they would 'stick up for Scotland'.

No sign of it yet, Ms Curran.
 
 
# gus1940 2011-11-13 09:21
Not quite 50 years in computing but I did start on an IBM 1440 in 1965.

8k of memory and 4mb of disk storage -cost >£100k.
 
 
# bigskelf 2011-11-13 10:44
and for another 50K they'd send an engineer round with a pair of wire cutters and with one snip let you have the other 8K ;-)
 
 
# gus1940 2011-11-13 16:10
Quoting bigskelf:
and for another 50K they'd send an engineer round with a pair of wire cutters and with one snip let you have the other 8K ;-)


Some folk won't believe that but you are dead right.
 
 
# cjmjr 2011-11-13 09:31
Labour MP's need power at Westminster to keep there job. Labour MSP's require more powers to Holyrood result conflict.The Torys will most certainly split result conflict. The Lib/Dem's have become a fringe party.The only Scottish party worth a vote is in fact the SNP

Labour are waiting untill after the Council elections to get the lay of the land I believe this will cause a hugh rift in the party between the MP's & MSP's fighting for power,leaving the Snp to govern Scotland as it has been doing all along without any help from the opposition.
Meanwhile the Unionists will bombard Scotland with too wee too stupid and we will fall off the end of the world scare stories.
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2011-11-13 13:52
She [Margaret Curran] said: “We’re playing Salmond’s game if we do this. We have to put pressure on him to explain why he is delaying and delaying.

What "delaying"? There is no "delay". The referendum will be held in the second half of the current parliament exactly as was announced during the election campaign.

Referendum Debate: www.referendumdebate.com
 
 
# exel 2011-11-13 14:49
patrickotic 2011-11-13 08:25
“Now I'm no expert at analyzing the polling date, but I doubt if many people are switching straight from supporting the union to supporting independence, but what seems to be happening is that people who have believed in the union are starting to doubt this belief and switching to 'don't knows' as people who have been 'don't knows' seem to be starting to plunge for independence.”

If you are really into trends Patrick, consider this, since 5th May 2011 when the SNP polled 45% of the popular vote and secured a majority, a variety of polls have put the opinion of Scots as 33% for independence, 33% for devomax and 33% for staying with the present devolution settlement (which we did vote for in a referendum).

This is an average poll result and is about valid as the question to the SNP “When will you come clean and tell us what you “really really” want us to vote for in the referendum and why?”
Trying to analyse opinion polls is a waste of time and energy, IMHO
 
 
# Angus Ogg 2011-11-13 22:09
Quoting exel:
patrickotic 2011-11-13 08:25
“Now I'm no expert at analyzing the polling date, but I doubt if many people are switching straight from supporting the union to supporting independence, but what seems to be happening is that people who have believed in the union are starting to doubt this belief and switching to 'don't knows' as people who have been 'don't knows' seem to be starting to plunge for independence.”

If you are really into trends Patrick, consider this, since 5th May 2011 when the SNP polled 45% of the popular vote and secured a majority, a variety of polls have put the opinion of Scots as 33% for independence, 33% for devomax and 33% for staying with the present devolution settlement (which we did vote for in a referendum).

This is an average poll result and is about valid as the question to the SNP “When will you come clean and tell us what you “really really” want us to vote for in the referendum and why?”
Trying to analyse opinion polls is a waste of time and energy, IMHO




"Trying to analyse opinion polls is a waste of time and energy, IMHO"



Posted by the person who did just that in the majority of it's posts......bizarre!
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-14 17:05
we're gonna wi-in !
We're gonna wi-in !
(sorry, couldn't keep it in)
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-14 23:17
Gus and bigSkelf

Too true guys. I had a friend that worked out of IBM in New York and he swore they had at least 3 or 4 years of "new models" sitting ready for issue.
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-15 12:53
Clootie
I'm of the same vintage and so
I'll dust of one of my passenger pigeons for you.
 
 
# grizzly 2011-11-15 14:42
Sorry I can't add anything to the debate {you have just about covered it all. Keep up the good work.

Does any one remember PDP11.02 - my first commercial machine which lead to Vax's
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-15 17:26
griz
I worked with a California company called Point 4 (now defunct) that made mini-computers. These were wardrobe sized units used by small businesses who couldm't afford IBM. Wow ! My phone has more computing power now.
 
 
# Early Ball 2011-11-15 20:40
Ah VMS!
 
 
# rouser 2011-11-15 21:20
Brian Taylor "no more" Brian Taylor has ceased allowing comments on his threads so much for democracy in the scottish media can any of the posts help me find any new venues, as i see things the more
post threads the better we must be waring the unionists down!
 
 
# call me dave 2011-11-16 17:48
Quoting rouser:
Brian Taylor "no more" Brian Taylor has ceased allowing comments on his threads so much for democracy in the scottish media can any of the posts help me find any new venues, as i see things the more
post threads the better we must be waring the unionists down!

---------------------------------------


I see some have been raising their concerns on the BBC site
Points of view

bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# rhymer 2011-11-16 12:31
If the Scotland bill isdead, as Lord F has claimed, why was it withdrawn?
Would a Scottish government veto have damaged Westminister ? Probably, as it would have created a brand new constitutional crisis. Plus it would have given a lot of good publicity in the area of Scottish independence.
 

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