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By a Newsnet reporter

Speaking at the Labour party's Scottish conference in Dundee's Caird Hall today, Labour leader Ed Miliband is expected to launch an attack on First Minister Alex Salmond, claiming that the policies of the SNP government in Scotland are leading to more Scots losing their jobs. 

With Labour trailing the SNP in the polls, and the local elections looming, Mr Miliband's speech will argue that at a time when the economy is "not working for the working people of our country", Alex Salmond's administration at Holyrood is "leaving more Scots out of work".

In his address to the Dundee conference he will say: "Alex Salmond came to England to brag about how he would turn Scotland into a progressive beacon.

"There's just one problem.  He forgot about what he had done in Scotland.  When George Osborne handed him the plans to make cuts to capital spending of 11%, he didn't just make those cuts.  He almost doubled them.  Thousands of jobs building roads, bridges, and infrastructure ripped out of the economy, not just by the Tories, but by the SNP."

Mr Miliband will lash out at Mr Salmond's "SNP Government which blames everyone else while leaving even more Scots out of work".

He is also expected to make a plea to Scottish voters to reject independence, saying that people across the UK "owe obligations to each other", and adding:  "Right now, every nation of the UK needs not isolation but solidarity ... Throwing up new borders won't make Scotland fairer.  If we are going to build an economy that works for working people, we have to do it together."

However Mr Miliband will struggle to win Scottish hearts and minds.  According to the latest polling figures the Labour leader scores a dismal -63 per cent in Scotland, a figure ranking him behind his rating even in the Conservative heartlands in the South of England.  A breakdown of the Sunday Times You Gov polling figures reveals that Ed Miliband’s approval rating is worse in Scotland than for the whole of Britain, where it is -42%.
Adding to Mr Miliband's woes, the party in Scotland is in turmoil, having recently experienced mass resignations amongst its Glasgow councillors in the aftermath of a bitter reselection process which has led to allegations of a bullying culture.  A group of the deselected councillors have announced their intention to set up a rival party to contest Labour in the city during May's local elections.  

The party is also reeling from the Eric Joyce affair, after the MP for Falkirk allegedly assaulted a Conservative MP and a Labour whip.  The incident was followed by a further allegation that Mr Joyce had a sexual relationship with a teenage supporter.  Mr Joyce denies this allegation and is reportedly considering legal action against the party.  Mr Joyce had been suspended from Labour after his arrest last week.

Meanwhile Scottish leader Johann Lamont is coming under increasing criticism for her failure to come to grip with the party's problems, and her inability to reverse its slide in the polls.  The SNP has criticised her for her lack of clarity on key issues, such as the council tax. 

Ms Lamont has said nothing about the decision of Labour councillors in Stirling to ally themselves with the Conservatives to introduce a cut in the tax, a policy the party apparently opposes.

The Scottish Labour leader has also opposed 'devo plus' or 'devo max', yet at the party conference today, shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander is expected to make an appeal to the party to embrace further devolution, leaving Labour without any coherent policy on the important issue of the constitution.

Commenting on Mr Miliband's prospects, SNP MSP for Cunninghame North Kenneth Gibson said:

"These appalling polling figures are an unmitigated disaster for Labour and a total embarrassment for Ed Miliband on the day he speaks to a nation which once – but no longer - leaned towards his party.  For a Labour leader’s approval rating among Scots to be far, far below an unpopular Tory Prime Minister reveals just how unpopular London-led Labour are in Scotland.

"It is clear that the people of Scotland are rightly appalled by Labour agreeing '100 per cent' with the Tories on Scotland’s future.  Ed Miliband's decision to join in a toxic pact with the Tories to stand in the way of job-creating powers and more responsibilities for the Scottish Parliament must be a key factor in this overwhelming negative verdict against him from Scots voters, who now know that a Yes vote to independence is the only sure way to secure these job-creating powers.

"Meanwhile, in the Scottish Parliament Labour are ganging up with the Tories again to vote against a Scottish Budget which delivered another year of frozen council tax, 25,000 apprenticeships for young people, and funding to build 5,000 new council houses.

"Their Scottish leader Johann Lamont has remained utterly silent on a series of scandals, from bullying in Glasgow City Council to criminal charges being filed against a Scottish Labour MP.

"Labour can't even make up their minds where they stand on an important issue like the council tax.  One minute they are calling for the popular council tax freeze to be scrapped, the next their councillors are cutting the council tax – and yet again Johann Lamont refuses to say where she stands.

"It's no wonder that Scottish voters are deserting Labour in droves, and no wonder that Ed Miliband's ratings are plumbing previously unimaginable depths for a Labour leader in Scotland.  Labour has no credibility and nothing useful to say on the constitution, on the economy, or on any of the issues that matter to ordinary households in Scotland."

Comments  

 
# clootie 2012-03-02 07:21
"savaged by a dead sheep" springs to mind!
 
 
# Mei 2012-03-02 09:27
The First Minister's ankle is going to be wringing wet again!
 
 
# EphemeralDeception 2012-03-02 07:27
"Thousands of jobs building roads, bridges, and infrastructure ripped out of the economy"

Which jobs? This comment contradicts the construction industry leaders in Scotland.
Even Miller groups chief exec has stated "The Scottish government's done a relatively good job in creating opportunities for building and larger infrastructure projects"


"Throwing up new borders". There are no trading borders in a free trade area, full freedom of movement.

"do it together". We are not together in an equal basis within the UK. With independence we will be able to work together as equals and come to agreements to mutual benefit as opposed to Centralised London rule for the benefit of the SE of England.


As for Captial spending, the only reason UK capital spending doesn't look worse is because of the money ripped out of the rest of the UK to pay for the Olympics and other projects in and around London.
 
 
# Vincent McDee 2012-03-02 09:36
You took it from my keyboard ED.

What the ... is this lad talking about???

When are they going to stop destroying and un-cooperative arguments and start to ask "How can we improve Scotland"?

Till that time the average person just hear them as if rain.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 10:04
The 'benefits of the union' that the unionists talk about are beyond contradiction as the benefits are only for England.
 
 
# Cuphook 2012-03-02 12:29
"Alex Salmond came to England” is the most interesting part of Ed's Big Speech. Surely as a self-professed UK politician speaking in that part of the UK known as Scotland he should have said "Alex Salmond went to England”. To me it sounds like he's talking as an English politician, and there's nothing wrong with that, I just wish he'd stop pretending otherwise.

At least this time he hasn't bored us with the family story of how his dad once spent two weeks on the Firth of Forth.
 
 
# northernshedboy 2012-03-02 15:10
Surely, as a UK anti seperation MP, he should have said that Alex Salmond went further south than usual in the UK and gave a talk to the Southern UK electorate.
 
 
# fifestevie 2012-03-03 00:36
Quoting EphemeralDecept ion:
"Thousands of jobs building roads, bridges, and infrastructure ripped out of the economy"

Which jobs? This comment contradicts the construction industry leaders in Scotland.
Even Miller groups chief exec has stated "The Scottish government's done a relatively good job in creating opportunities for building and larger infrastructure projects"


"Throwing up new borders". There are no trading borders in a free trade area, full freedom of movement.

"do it together". We are not together in an equal basis within the UK. With independence we will be able to work together as equals and come to agreements to mutual benefit as opposed to Centralised London rule for the benefit of the SE of England.


As for Captial spending, the only reason UK capital spending doesn't look worse is because of the money ripped out of the rest of the UK to pay for the Olympics and other projects in and around London.

Absolutely spot on .
 
 
# mealer 2012-03-02 07:30
Ed Millibands presence at the Labour bash wont do them any favours.He doesnt come over well enough.And he has had a pretty abysmal time as Labour front maan in Westminster.He's had a "bit of a doing" in the press and from other politicians.And this is a problem for the anti-independence bunch.Theyre falling out all the time over various issues,and that makes it hard to portray a united front in their British Nationalissm.Always falling out among thhemselves.Like the English Defence League.
I wonder if theinterest in the whole referendum thing will lead to a reasonable attendance at the conference.
 
 
# EphemeralDeception 2012-03-02 07:50
I agree and he does not seem to have learned that a negative attack is not going to win any votes.

Meanwhile the positive case for the union is still dead and buried. Eds rhetoric is so full of holes and vacuous statements is it any wonder they are doing so badly.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 15:18
E.D. let's hope no one has the nonce to tell Red Ed that any time soon. The longer he and his "new" best buddy "Call me Dave" keep up with the negative campaigning the better all round it will be for us.

The only time a negative campaign will win is when it is up against another negative campaign, the lesser of the negatives winning. So with Ed and Dave's negative campaign up against A.S. and his posiitve campaign I think I know who is going to win this one!
 
 
# doonhamer 2012-03-02 17:08
RED ED? BLUE ED? PURPLE ED? even ORANGE ED? They all confuse me. I think DEAD ED is far more accurate.
 
 
# deepwater 2012-03-02 20:25
"Dead Ed" - ship slang for a large log or other inert article that floats just below the surface with the capability to fatally hole a ship just below the waterline and con-dem her to a watery grave.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 23:48
Quote:
... And this is a problem for the anti-independence bunch.Theyre falling out all the time over various issues,and that makes it hard to portray a united front in their British Nationalissm...


I think this is the problem, the anti-independists just can't get their act together because they're resentful and suspicious of each other and playing the Westmister game. Which leaves the street wide open for the SNP and any other independent-minded factions to play the Holyrood game, or Scotland's self-determination game. Which comes across as honest and near to the people, and attracts ever more people.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 23:55
The longer the unionists/anti independentista s carry on down this road the better it will be for us.

The longer they carry on with their bitter in fighting the less time they will have to correct their mistakes.

The longer they carry on with their bitter and petty little unionist arguments the more pathetic they appear to everyone.
 
 
# RJBH 2012-03-02 07:33
Its excellent news.. just what we need and I look forward to all attacks by the said millionaire socialist.
 
 
# RJBH 2012-03-02 19:40
It seem the Daily Telegraph has stopped allowing comments ..

Could it be that the cybernats corrections of the misleading slurs against the SNP... have caused them to close down the comments.... ?

A bad day for democracy indeed.
 
 
# Gwendog 2012-03-02 22:50
I noticed that. Having actually read to the end of Cochranes diatribe, I had a witty "Lord Haw Haw" post composed in my head.

Not a good sign when we cannot answer back.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 07:53
He is also expected to make a plea to Scottish voters to reject independence, saying that people across the UK "owe obligations to each other"

Right. Scotland is obliged to suffer a Tory government for the good of English Labour.
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 07:54
He is also expected to make a plea to Scottish voters to reject independence, saying that people across the UK "owe obligations to each other", and adding: "Right now, every nation of the UK needs not isolation but solidarity ... Throwing up new borders won't make Scotland fairer. If we are going to build an economy that works for working people, we have to do it together."

OWE?? OBLIGATION??? FAIRER SCOTLAND????

He's having a laugh! Firstly the only obligation that I owe the next door neighbours is to be a good, friendly neighbour. I owe the parliament of Westminster absolutely nothing and they are not even deserving of friendship or trust for the damage they have brought on my country. As for fairer Scotland, who was the last team in power? In fact over the past fifty years whether it was RED or BLUE in the big seat, how much .................. time does a parliament need to make a fairer society?

Westminster has had its chance to make Britain a fairer society. They took our trust, our pride, our resources and our lives over generations. But most particularly the past fifty years have seen some of the most cynical examples of exploitation between nation partners. Even now in the London press Scots are demonised as ungrateful whingers who not only do not contribute to the union but are in fact supposedly sponging of it. Its time to sweep clean and start new.


Ah'll gie ye fairer Scotland!

Rant over
 
 
# brh206 2012-03-02 08:46
Totally agree, Labour should be ashamed of themselves for their record over 80 years in Scotland. Under labour we are at the top of all the worst league tables, fairness doesn't apply when in my lifetime they stood by and watched generations being thrown on the scrapheap. The Torries are the Torries and I expect nothing different from them but Labour lied to us for generations. The party of the working man/woman, lie. The party of no more boom and bust. lie. The party for social justice and equality, lie. The party that listens, lie. I would not trust Ed Miliband as far as I can throw him. I just hope they keep him as at the end of the day he is a reminder of all that is rotten in the Labour Party, all that fails the people who support them. Let him come up and berate the SNP, the SNP are far from perfect but until something better comes along they will have my vote. At least they have done a lot of what they said they would do such as freezing CT etc.
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 09:11
Ditto brh - In terms of vision, policy, conduct and pledges kept, the SNP are on a different and far higher league than any of the opposition. I'm not a member but I am an admirer.
 
 
# clootie 2012-03-02 08:53
The neighbour comparison is quite good. The problem is our neighbours have run a big extension into oor hoose and we are paying for their power.
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 09:13
I want ma lawnmower back as well! :)
 
 
# GloomyJim 2012-03-02 12:14
Scotland is the land of the broken pay packet.My neighbour get's my paypacket every Friday, and buys me a half pint on the occasional Saturday and a packet o broken biscuits for the weans.My wife and the weans would like to see the pay packet.WE have a new postman Alec who tries to deliver it to us, but all the other neighbours are nippin
 
 
# Angus 2012-03-02 07:59
Its all empty talk, with no substance.

Wonder if they will have to bus up labour supporters from the North of England, to make him look popular, Gordon Broon had to do this on his conference in Dundee.
 
 
# RJBH 2012-03-02 08:01
This from todays..Torygraph

Douglas Alexander: Labour candidates not good enough to beat SNP

Scottish Labour’s current crop of election candidates are not good enough to prevent the party suffering repeated defeats at the hands of the SNP, Douglas Alexander will warn today.

pretty rich coming from Alexander...They never gave a toss for Holyrood.. "Aspiring" to Westminster ..but he is right..the 2nd & 3rd raters are so woeful.. virtually unelectable... I, a 40 year Labour voter simply crindge at what Labour ask us to vote for.
 
 
# gt-cri 2012-03-03 14:15
Quoting RJBH:
This from todays..Torygraph

Douglas Alexander: Labour candidates not good enough to beat SNP

Scottish Labour’s current crop of election candidates are not good enough to prevent the party suffering repeated defeats at the hands of the SNP, Douglas Alexander will warn today.

pretty rich coming from Alexander...They never gave a toss for Holyrood.. "Aspiring" to Westminster ..but he is right..the 2nd & 3rd raters are so woeful.. virtually unelectable... I, a 40 year Labour voter simply crindge at what Labour ask us to vote for.


Damage limitation time? Try to deflect the blame to the candidates, not the party? Poor move...who chose them?
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-03-02 08:02
Last time Labour were in the Caird Hall there were around 400 present to hear Gordon Brown's fireside chat. They were almost out numbered by the media and on the day Gordon spoke the AEWU drafted in 200 members to protest against Gordon's plans for the Royal Mail.

As a student in the 70's I can remember when a Labour Spring Conference in Dundee would have a packed Caird Hall for the leader's address and the place would be infested with Labour supporters - this spring I doubt the average Dundonian will even be aware Labour has been in town.
 
 
# clootie 2012-03-02 10:12
Compare that to the last SNP conference in Inverness. The hall at maximum capacity and FIVE overspill cimemas full.
 
 
# zedeeyen 2012-03-02 08:14
I'm sure he'll deliver his speech with his usual panache and charisma.

Salmond must be keechin it.
 
 
# twinpowr 2012-03-02 08:14
Bring it on Ed. in the only chance Scotland will have for a fairer society is without the Westminster money grubbers. The system they use is like the one I used at home when I was a kid handing out Sweets. 1 for you 3 for me. translate that to pounds and oil and you start to get the picture.
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-03-02 08:21
O/T

Seems the man is not for resigning.... to coin a phrase.

dailyrecord.co.uk/.../...

Seems having his place at the trough is more important than serving the public.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-03-02 11:30
An officer and a gentleman?

No a cad!

I find it inconceivable how so many people still vote Labour. Is it because they are ignorant of the loutish behaviour, lack of quality and dishonesty of their MPs, MSPs and councillors or are they supporters of this in some sort of sick sympathetic way?
 
 
# nchanter 2012-03-02 12:22
Quoting Edna Caine:
An officer and a gentleman?

No a cad!

I find it inconceivable how so many people still vote Labour. Is it because they are ignorant of the loutish behaviour, lack of quality and dishonesty of their MPs, MSPs and councillors or are they supporters of this in some sort of sick sympathetic way?

Your post caused me to remember what my late uncle told me some years ago. He was a POW after his capture at St Valerys France where he was in the Seaforth highlanders. He told me of the day they were liberated, that the camp guards left the camp and the gates open, he said all the prisoners just stood around not knowing what to do or where to go, they had to be led out through the gates by the allied troops. It may be unfair to site this story as an example of uncertainty in who to vote for, but I think it is valid.
 
 
# D_A_N 2012-03-02 13:08
That's a sad story, but also a good analogy if you ask me.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-03-02 17:55
A good analogy, nchanter, but before the gates were opened, I'd guess the POWs were longing for freedom, not giving support to the guards.

My rather off the wall pondering about whether there is a core element of Labour support that actually admires the loutishness and dishonesty of their representatives and sympathises with their lack of ability is still valid.
 
 
# nchanter 2012-03-02 18:50
Quoting Edna Caine:
A good analogy, nchanter, but before the gates were opened, I'd guess the POWs were longing for freedom, not giving support to the guards.

My rather off the wall pondering about whether there is a core element of Labour support that actually admires the loutishness and dishonesty of their representatives and sympathises with their lack of ability is still valid.

We will always have that element as in any country, I do not need to live in a perfect country just a good and just one where the government we choose is loyal to the people not the other way round.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-03-02 21:00
Hear, hear.

Let us hope that that good and just country is an independent one.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-03-02 08:24
Will Eddie Izzard be there to continue the surreal theme?

It would be good if NNS could obtain an interview with Milliband; the political genius of our times.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-03-02 08:28
From the Herald:

heraldscotland.com/.../...

Peter Hughes, chief executive of Scottish Engineering, said the "vast majority" of his members wanted the vote to be held before autumn 2014, the SNP's preferred timescale. It followed a survey of members of the group, which indicated only 22% were happy with the 2014 date, while almost three-quarters (74%) wanted the referendum to be held "much earlier".

The Scottish Engineering survey analysed about 100 responses from the group's 400 members and Mr Hughes said results indicated most were keen to see a "speedy resolution" to the referendum issue.



So, 74 out of 400 expressed a view to see it brought forward.

By my reckoning thats 18.5%, not really the 'vast' majority.

The other 300 were not bothered.

Still, it makes a headline that the Herald are happy to run with.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-03-02 08:42
I noticed that too. A very dubious poll, very low response rate indeed.

74 out of 400 is NOT 74%.
 
 
# nottooweeorstupid 2012-03-02 09:42
Hope one of you has posted that on the Herald! I've given up on them, I'm still being moderated eight months on - despite never having posted anything out of order. Oh, except for those posts in favour of independence....
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-03-02 09:59
done
 
 
# Hing em high 2012-03-02 14:38
I have given up with the Herald! They are morderating even my posts that are complimetary of Brit Labourand the Union.I guess sarcasm isn't allowed either?
 
 
# Union City Blues 2012-03-02 19:00
I was also on the naughty boy list for the Herald so I emailed the Digital Director and asked them why. They ignored it so I tried again. they still ignored it but took me off moderation. It is oly £35 quid for the full years access, the price of half a good night out, (or a full cr*p night out!) We need more of us on there. Most people seem to have jumped ship to The other comic.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-03-02 09:17
Peter Hughes does have form
He has been using this phrase of 'uncertainty' quite a lot
The following is a recording of an interview on Radio 4
news.bbc.co.uk/.../9682479.stm
Some of his comments are cringing to say the least.
He is also pro nuclear : "First Minister Alex Salmond and his team at Holyrood must get their heads out of the sand as regards the nuclear issue. We need a balanced generation system for Scotland's energy needs." that was from a pre 2010 conference
scottishengineering.org.uk/.../...
 
 
# megsmaw 2012-03-02 18:48
I'll be glad to see the back of the nuclear power plants. At least with carbon pollution you can do something to fix it - nuclear waste does damage beyond repair with no easy fix. The pro nuclear folk seem to have forgotten this.
 
 
# Ready to Start 2012-03-02 08:31
The real uncertainty will be if Scots vote No in 2014 as there will be a UK election in 2015 then a period of naval gazing before the London Parties come up with any watered down additional powers for Scotland.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 08:33
I was going to make a similar point: that there is uncertainty built into the UK, every time there is a General Election. Then it occurred to me that there's no longer any substantial uncertainty, because there's no real difference in policies, particularly where business is concerned.
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-03-02 08:34
And your support for the Great British Union Ltd. (props. D. Cameron and N. Clegg) is not causing any job losses, Ed?
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-03-02 08:33
From the Scottish Engineering website, I gleaned the following snippets.

www.scottishengineering.org.uk/

During his visit to Scotland, Bank of England Governor, Mervyn King met more than twenty senior executives from the Engineering Manufacturing Sector at the offices of Scottish Engineering in Glasgow.

Scottish Engineering hosted a dinner on November 4 in their Glasgow headquarters where the guest speaker was Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland.

Says it all really.
 
 
# clootie 2012-03-02 10:17
Perhaps a few more concrete offers for them compared to our jam tomorrow.

Surely not "bought for English gold" again
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-03-02 08:39
So, here we have the NEW leader of Labour in Scotland, Johan Lamont, at the Scottish Labour conference, letting the man from London give the 'keynote' speech. Where is the 'keynote' speech by Lamont??

Hardly a day goes by without yet another careerist London politician coming up to Scotland on an awayday return, offering platitudes and patronising, 'London knows best' comments to Scotland. Such visits invariably start with the phrase "I know Scotland is a great country, and I am not here today to tell Scots what to think"....and so on. Patronising comment after another ultimately culminating in the 'piece de resistance', the killer punch, the stunning and truly moving 'positive case for the union' - "we're stronger together".

It's enough to make you weep.

Time and again, politicians from London pay no heed to how Scotland's mood has changed. Time and again, they are in denial that Scots are clamouring for change. Miliband today, in Dundee will do the same.

Poll after poll, shows that the vast majority of Scots at the very least want substantially more powers for the Scottish parliament. They do not want the drip, drip, piecemeal transfer of powers which Westminster thinks is sufficient, indeed they do not want the patronising, and frankly colonial arrogance of the laughingly titled 'Scotland Bill' aka Calman minus.

I do not know, and the Scottish Government do not know how much change the Scots truly want until the referendum in 2014, but you can be sure the union as we know it is finished. People in England are also unhappy at this outdated, unworkable and unfair union. They are wising up, albeit slowly.

Scotland is changing, and changing fast, politicians such as ED Miliband can either get to grips with that reality and engage constructively in the process, arguing a positive case for greater autonomy, just short of independence, or they will find themselves increasingly marginalised.

Miliband needs to understand that it is not just the SNP who are pushing for change, there are many people within the Libdems and Labour in Scotland who believe in much greater powers or independence for Scotland. It is a movement for change, that comes FROM the people. The SNP is merely a vehicle of change, via their democratic mandate from the people. A simple fact which London politicians just cannot seem to understand.

Scottish politics have moved on, the people of Scotland have moved on. The pace of change has astonished even me. We are all charting a brighter future for Scotland in charge of its own affairs once more, free of London patronism and interference. Labour has a clear choice; it can either get on board and undo its terminal decline in Scotland, or find itself forever marginalised in Scotland.

Which will it be Mr. Miliband?
 
 
# Teri 2012-03-02 20:20
Lamont's keynote speec is tomorrow. I cant wait to hear her vision for Scotland and her case for the union.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-03-02 08:43
Lamont on the radio this morning a few minutes ago.

On Joyce: hasn't spoken to him yet! Helloooo. . . Johann maybe that's important.

It's his decision to resign or not.
Enough said!

------------------------
She said the the party must open up to new talent.

On independence she said our problems like eg: child poverty and unemployment were not created by the union nor will they be cured by independence.

She wasn't really pushed too much but had little to reveal except that she had not spoken to Mr Joyces.

A weekend of of the usual bile and lies from both conferences then. No change.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-03-02 09:18
JL explained that the UK is the best structure for redistributing wealth, presumably when Labour is in power in Westminster. She ignored the glaringly obvious fact that the Tories traditionally reverse any such trend in favour of SE England.
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-03-02 09:43
Quoting farrochie:
JL explained that the UK is the best structure for redistributing wealth, presumably when Labour is in power in Westminster. She ignored the glaringly obvious fact that the Tories traditionally reverse any such trend in favour of SE England.


Aye, Tories redistribute wealth to the Home Counties and Labour redistribute wealth ... where exactly?

Not Scotland or Wales, that's for sure.

Some Union! In it together? - Don't make me laugh. Unless you mean we really are in it together...
 
 
# Exile 2012-03-02 10:00
"redistributing wealth" Aye, from Scotland to London. You're right enough there, Johann.
 
 
# G. P. Walrus 2012-03-02 18:05
"JL explained that the UK is the best structure for redistributing wealth"

That was the most interesting part of the interview for me. Johann seemed (correct me if you heard different) to actually be trying to argue that Scotland was one of the richer parts of the UK and that money was redistributed from there to help the poor elsewhere in the UK.
She actually says at one point (on money being distributed to poorer parts of the UK), "I didn't say it was English money" but the interviewer was only hearing one thing, accusing her of saying we were too poor.

If Labour are trying the old argument of "we need to stay in the UK to help the English poor" they are on a very sticky wicket indeed.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 09:57
"She said the the party must open up to new talent."

That puts her on the spot then.
 
 
# admiral 2012-03-02 10:14
Quoting call me dave:
On Joyce: hasn't spoken to him yet! Helloooo. . . Johann maybe that's important.

It's his decision to resign or not.
Enough said!



It's called leadership, dontcha know?
 
 
# PrideoftheClyde 2012-03-02 08:45
How does it help to build a fairer Scotland when we have to be subject to a tory government in Westminster for a generation everytime Labour screw up their tenure in government? (Not that Labour made the UK any fairer.) We owe nothing to anyone but we owe it to ourselves to finally break free from tory governments which a vast majority of Scots didn't want or vote for.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-03-02 08:45
Vacuous drivel from a career politician who is not short of a bob or two so how can he like the Bullingdon boys in Wastemonster have any clue whatsoever about the political reality in Scotland.
No more of a clue that is than one Johanne Lamont who is architypically clueless.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-03-02 08:47
I'm giving 2/1 odds that milliband forgets someones name.
 
 
# Vincent McDee 2012-03-02 09:43
Can I have a tenner on Lament being one of them?
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-03-02 09:53
You certainly can, all bets over a fiver get a free...err... lollipop.

If anyone want an outside bet - 100/1 odds on Eric Joyce's name being mentioned. Could be worth a couple of quid on an outside punt.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 08:50
Ms Lamont on the Today programme this morning saying that there is a positive case for the Union. She didn't say what it was, mind. Nor could she explain why she didn't want a Devo Whatever option on the ballot.
 
 
# brh206 2012-03-02 08:59
bbc.co.uk/.../...

Hidden away in on the BBC web site is the link to the story about the welfare reform bill passing the lords stage last night. I posted it because it is virtually impossible to find on the BBC, surprise surprise. But maybe miliband should be talking about this socially fair reform that his party support. Yeah a fair and equal Scotland, your such a political heavyweight Miliband, a pity thats just your bank balance.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-03-02 09:09
Yes brh, for further reading on the effects of the welfare bill, just have a read of Sue Marsh's 'A post about Pooh'

newsnetscotland.com/.../...
 
 
# Vincent McDee 2012-03-02 09:46
Rarely does an article makes me so frightened. Sue's is pure terror.
 
 
# Buddyh 2012-03-02 11:37
That will be the welfare reform bill that is already in progress, my disabled wife who is my full time carer and also an old aunt of 86 disabled and housebounds part time carer has just had her letter telling her to report to the job center on March 16th to see what work she can do, and if she does not go it may affect her benefit, surely if there is work that she could be doing then there are able bodied people unemployed that could do it. SORRY but I am absolutly raging at this Tory lets force the sick out to work. A fair society yeh right.
 
 
# G. P. Walrus 2012-03-02 18:10
It is appalling and disgusting - you are right to be raging. Any decent society has a duty to protect the poor and the sick.
 
 
# megsmaw 2012-03-02 18:57
Quoting G. P. Walrus:
It is appalling and disgusting - you are right to be raging. Any decent society has a duty to protect the poor and the sick.


If we don't we'll end up in the same state as America.
 
 
# Impartial Observer 2012-03-03 14:39
A frightening thought megsmaw - I live in the US at the moment and to watch the audience at a Republican debate cheer and applaud when the candidates state that someone who doesn't have the money for medical care should be left to die sent a shiver down my spine.

You can measure how civilized a country is by how they treat their children their sick and their old.

I'm deseperately keen to return to Scotland before the referendum so I can have my say and tick the right box.

I may have to change my moniker to "Partial Observer" now though !

Jim
 
 
# megsmaw 2012-03-03 15:41
I saw the Panorama programme about this the other week. The whole thing was sickening. Homeless kids being given food from school to eat at weekends and holidays. Massive queues in terrible weather to get a free check up, and people living in tent cities.

The republicans seem to be more and more extreme in their hatred of the American people. I wish them well in the upcoming election.

I hope you get back here in time to vote in 2014 Jim.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 09:01
It's actually not good for independence in international terms that there is no cross-party support for it. So we were told by an expert in the field last night. Of course, it it essential for Spain as Catalan independence will have to depend on international support as Catalonia will be perpetrating an illegal act by seeking independence.

The best thing that could happen is for one of the opposition parties to break up and let their independentists go.

Interestingly, when the Tories tried it, they were unsuccessful. Maybe the heedyins know a thing or two about international observers and the kinds of rules they apply to things like independence.

It's worth a thought.
 
 
# govanite 2012-03-02 09:47
Don't need cross-party support - although we do have it. Just cos the unionists have split their forces in 3 doesn't make their argument any stronger.

All we need is a majority of the sovereign people's votes.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-03-02 10:11
Yes, and there are 3 'parties' in Holyrood who support independence:

SNP
Green
Margo

= cross-party support.
 
 
# weegie38 2012-03-02 12:01
Quoting scottish_skier:
Yes, and there are 3 'parties' in Holyrood who support independence:

SNP
Green
Margo

= cross-party support.

Plus the Scottish Socialist Party and possibly Solidarity too. Neither in Holyrood currently though.
 
 
# Exile 2012-03-02 10:03
Marga

A clear YES vote is enough for the UN, Council of Europe etc. All this stuff about cross-party support is just another red herring.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 12:24
The funny thing is there really is partial or shall we say crypto-cross-party support but the opposition parties won't admit it. Yet.
 
 
# nchanter 2012-03-03 01:15
Quoting Marga B:
The funny thing is there really is partial or shall we say crypto-cross-party support but the opposition parties won't admit it. Yet.

I have been wondering what the unionist parties will do when we get the yes vote. Will they become redundant as they wish NO. How can they stand for election again in Scotland. Just wondered.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 09:45
"Miliband to 'attack' Alex Salmond as Labour struggle to regain initiative"

Is it a case of, the mad axe man returns?
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-03-02 09:55
Mr Milliband might wish to consider supporting Devo Maxx....

IPSOS-MORI Devo Maxx results…..

ipsos-mori.com/.../...

Heard of Devo Maxx?
Y = 65%
N = 35%

Should it be on the Ballot certain to vote (all in brackets)?
Y = 55% (59%)
N = 41% (37%)
U = 3% (4%)

Should Scotland have Devo Maxx certain to vote (all in brackets)?
Y = 71% (71%)
N = 25% (24%)
U = 5% (5%)

90% of Independence supporters support Devo Maxx as alternative

~60% of Lab and Lib voters support Devo Maxx. Even just shy of 40% of Tory voters support it.

All good. The majority of Scots know what FFA/Devo Maxx is and want it for Scotland short of independence. So what will they do if it’s not on offer? Most will vote for Devo Maxx ‘Excel’ (current independence proposal).

What a headache for the unionist parties.

-------

Interesting identity data from Tables:

This looks consistent and is good for the independence camp. Majority of Scots are Scottish before British; nearly 6 in 10….

Scottish not British = 24%
More Scottish than British = 32%
(Total = 56%)

Equally Scottish and British = 32%

More British than Scottish = 4%
British Not Scottish = 6%
(Total = 10%)

None of Above = 3%
 
 
# macdoc 2012-03-02 11:53
SS

Thats not as good news as you may think regarding national identity. The trends seem to be going in the wrong way and is somewhat worrying.

Compare with previous years. Not once was "more British than Scottish" above 8% and "equally British and Scottish" never reached more than 27% from 1997-2003.

devolution.ac.uk/.../...
 
 
# Holebender 2012-03-02 12:37
Holy crap! Only 10% British over Scottish. The union really is finished!
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-03-02 18:05
Yes, that is the more correct interpretation.

56% have little or no affinity for 'Britishness' at all.

The 32% who answered 'Equally Scottish & British' would have been less inclinded to do so if it had been written the other way around, i.e. 'Equally British & Scottish'. Putting 'Scottish' first meant that people, when answering, were acutally saying I am Scottish first, but do feel british to a moderate degree.

The problem with the questioning was that it pitted Scottish against British in addition to not stating what British meant; i.e. socially or politically. People do not want to dissociate themselves from nice people who live elsewhere in the British Isles and the questioning was to an extent pushing them to do this. That is why you have more numbers involving a British aspect (Scottish & British) than if you e.g. asked:

Very strongly Scottish
Strongly Scottish
Equally Scottish and British
Strongly British
Very Strongly British
Other

The first two now do not suggest any negative feeling 'against' Britishness so would score much higher.

The last poll I have on this question from a month or two ago had ~82% Very Strongly (53%) or Strongly (rem) Scottish. That can been seen in the 88% MORI result above where 'Scottish' comes first, even simply by positioning in the question as discussed.
 
 
# thomsor 2012-03-02 10:19
re kenny Gibson - yet again Joann Lamont refuses to say where she stands. If the Scottish MSM and the state broadcaster BBC Scotland do not ask her the questions you will not get an answer. As we all know only the SNP and their supporters can be interrogated and their views trashed.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 13:55
Quote:
re kenny Gibson - yet again Joann Lamont refuses to say where she stands.



She doesn't need to say where she stands. We all know where she stands...... next to the pigeon loft waiting for the next set of instructions to come in by pigeon post from the millipede!:D
 
 
# Teri 2012-03-02 20:22
Nah, at the moment she's sitting on the fence.
 
 
# I Say Yes 2012-03-02 10:26
Bit off topic but here is a link to an article in the Japanese Times entitled:

To Save the UK: England must be more like Scotland.

japantimes.co.jp/.../...
 
 
# clootie 2012-03-02 10:48
I say Yes

Thanks for the link - If only we had such open factual reporting in our MSM.
 
 
# I Say Yes 2012-03-02 11:44
Clootie

I found the article on the following link which has lots of interesting information on Scotland including links to Newsnet.

www.scoop.it/t/referendum-2014
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 12:12
Good link I Say Yes.

A bit shaky on one or two facts, but not bad as an objective view of the situation.
 
 
# Wave Machine 2012-03-02 10:27
A point that we must not forget is that Milliband, Clegg and Cameron are all cut from the same cloth.

Ask yourselves this and, in especially ask supporters in Scotland of these three.

Just what does a posh English politician educated in either Oxford or Cambridge know about Scotland? What do they know about the pressures that we are all under?

You could also extend the question to "what do they know about England?" but I'll leave that one for the good people of England to answer.

They are just products of the traditional route to Westminster. Oxbridge education, choose your political colour of choice, quick few years under the belt working as an aid to someone, safe seat, build a little group of admirers, say the right things etc etc.

They are not worth listening to and what is clearly apparent is that when they are presented with a situation that isn't in the A to Z of British politics, they come all stuck, suddenly devoid of ideas. Strange that, isn't it?
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-03-02 10:46
We need to send every Labour MSP a copy of the OECD's latest report on Norway and ask them why they want to deny Scots the same level of economic and social success.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 14:02
W.S. when they are sent a copy of the OECD report perhaps we should include a copy of the McCrone report as well. With a wee note attached saying that "things have only got better" for our oil and gas industry since1975.

So chumps, if Independence was good enough for us in 1975 it sure as hell is good enough for us in 2014!
 
 
# balgayboy 2012-03-02 10:55
I come from Dundee and I wonder if Ed will visit the deprived areas of my city who have only known unemployment, poverty and no future prospects mostly under a Labour elected MP's to tell these people there that it's only fair that they should consider the rest of the UK and share "the pain" while he quaffs oysters and champagne with the London "elite" while these same people struggle to feed their family and make ends meet. Roll on 2014
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-03-02 11:01
I see the BBC website is covering Labour's conference live.
 
 
# admiral 2012-03-02 11:27
Quoting Wee-Scamp:
I see the BBC website is covering Labour's conference live.


They're not, are they? I am really just soooooooooooooo o surprised! LOL
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-03-02 12:13
I managed to listen to about three minutes of her dirge like outpourings and caught her perpetuating the lie about the Forth Road Bridge and China again.

Incredible.
 
 
# cirsium 2012-03-02 17:16
Louperdowg - "unscrupulous" is the adjective I'd choose. Ms Lamont is following George W Bush's maxim - you can even fool some of the people all of the time, and these are the people we want to concentrate on!!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:22
But their numbers are dwindling!
 
 
# Pleo 2012-03-02 11:16
Wow, I think you would need to be a palaeontologist to understand the majority of these MPs from Westminster. Either they still don't seem to have realised that constructive criticism is needed rather than destructive, or they just have nothing useful to propose as an alternative. Regardless, anything that comes out of this man's mouth would be well put to use if it was spread over a field to help the plants grow.

Quite likely he will be proven right on one point though; the policies of the SNP Government will lead to more "Scots" losing their jobs. There may not be a set date yet but I'm quite certain autumn 2014 will be the time a number of jobs (in South East England) are rendered irrelevant.
 
 
# John Lyons 2012-03-02 11:26
You are Damn right the people of the UK owe obligations to each other Mr Miliband. Those in the very south owe a hell of a lot to those in the north.

How about, instead of telling us how rubbish the SNP are you tell us something about what Labour are going to do about it? Maybe you can do what Johann Lamont cannot and talk to us about Councillors resigning, MPS being arrested, and the near treasonous acts perpetrated by your party councillors in Stirling?

No???

Then you are just a waste of space and time. Move over and let some proper old school salt of the earth working class politicians run the party.
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-03-02 11:56
Quoting balgayboy:
I come from Dundee and I wonder if Ed will visit the deprived areas of my city who have only known unemployment, poverty and no future prospects mostly under a Labour elected MP's to tell these people there that it's only fair that they should consider the rest of the UK and share "the pain" while he quaffs oysters and champagne with the London "elite" while these same people struggle to feed their family and make ends meet. Roll on 2014


Absolutely agree.I see the terrible conditions both parties have presided over in the past years.
Promise this,promise that,and Scotland remains at the top of the European League of all that is undesirable in a civil society.SHAME ON YOU.
A national disgrace-------We've had ENOUGH.
NO MORE promises,and sweet talk.

VOTE YES FOR INDY.
 
 
# daveniz 2012-03-02 12:06
just heard that Gordon browns former chief advisor and 4 other unionists politicians are doing a talk about British politics and how to get into politics through westminister (not the Scottish parliament) to political students at university of Glasgow and using it to spread unionists lies as they won't allow any opposing views in the talk this needs to be taken up with the university that these kind of talks are biased and don't serve on educational value without opposing views! I don't have the details as its suppose to be a low key event that the political students will only get the details for!
 
 
# border reiver 2012-03-02 12:11
Just show what dissary labour are in, an article in todays New Statesmnan quotes Douglas Alexander saying that Labour would embrace Devo Plus at the same time as Milleband and Lamont are against it.
The unionists must be very worried that their campaign is floundering badly as any sort of Devo Plus - Devo Max or anything like it would never have had a mention if they thought the NO's had it in the bag. the best thing to do is just let them keep up the bad work and independence will be guaranteed.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-03-02 12:14
O/T Taylor's big debate about to start
I wonder what crass propaganda will be spouted
 
 
# C2DEalba 2012-03-02 18:27
I switched off after a couple of minutes. Brian Taylor was prompting Johann Lamont when she forgot to critise SNP. In fact the whole thing started with SNP bashing.
 
 
# Clarinda 2012-03-02 12:16
I have always regretted the absence of political opposition to the SNP - in order that we may respond with some insight as to the integrity, or not, of all our MSP's intent, action and outcome. At least the unionists always had some sort of meaningful opposition in the form of the SNP. Having a number of hapless unionist incumbents taking up space in Holyrood does not currently figure except in fulfilling a complete chamber head count.

The pop-up talking unionist heads and their groupies in various Devo-Suffix guises have not yet produced anything of substance bar a remarkable grasp on their sinkng political straws. Unfortunately, the potential public impression perpetrated by large elements of the MSM is of seemingly competent bands of individuals promising something or other better than Independence or a 'No' vote. The thin gathering yesterday of another Devo-Jam Tomorrow ensemble was a rather insipid event lacking fact, figure, soul, ambition or spirit ... and delegates - even in the words of it's very own apparent organiser and Chair.

This absence of substance (surely the unionists must have known an Independence referendum was likely for some years?) in what ever Devo-Suffix pops up next, provides a constant opportunity for the MSM to willfully blame the SNP for what appears to be, so far, a unionist subterfuge. Despite having little or no explicit probity, and despite the same amount of recent time plus 300 years, the devo-wheeze gives an insidious glaze of pseudo-integrity to the anti-independence dupes and falsely incriminates the SNP in the hands of the MSM.


No doubt today Mr E Milliband will clearly illustrate and establish the magnificent net contribution the union has made and continues to make to us poor, wee and stupid people who tolerate living here - while 'attacking' our majority government and electorate for having Scotland's best interests in our heads, hearts and future ... I should coco.
 
 
# Hing em high 2012-03-02 15:36
There is an opposition to the SNP Clarinda. It is called the BBC and the MSM! A media machine that is fed several politically crafted releases per day from the offices of the Brit Unionist Tory and Labour Partys!
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-03-02 12:16
The herald today has extensively trailed an upcoming speech by Douglas Alexander. So clearly they are making a concerted effort - although difficult to see what they hope to achieve since they do not seem to have much to offer.

O/T, slightly, but Rab McNeil's column in today's Herald is woth a read. He has a go at the leaping lords.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 14:09
I'm surprised that the Herald is trailing Wee doogie's speech so much. Has no one read the Telegraph this morning.

telegraph.co.uk/.../...

:D
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 14:34
What? And ruin a perfectly good weekend??? :)
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 14:43
Why should we be the only one's that have our weekends ruined? :D

I believe in the "share and share alike" concept. If they can ruin our weekend well they can damned well ruin their own weekend as well. :D
 
 
# hektorsmum 2012-03-02 15:56
Had not read that but read his drivel in the Guardian, probably more of the same, just different headline. I am afraid i did not give it my full attention.
 
 
# MacSenex 2012-03-02 12:21
Unionists are great ones for talking about borders.

People who believe in devolving power to any extent create borders. Every council area has borders.

People who complain about "postcode lotteries" are invariably the same ones who support devolution of the services which allows local communities to make choices in services thus creating the postcode lottery.

The Treaty of Union perpetuated borders by maintaining separate legal and educational systems

The only borders which don't have to exist are those in one's mind.

The problem for the Unionists is that they set the borders in their mind whereas for Nationalists there are no borders on ambition.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-03-02 12:22
Pace Louperdowg 2012-03-02 12:13
I managed to listen to about three minutes of her dirge like outpourings and caught her perpetuating the lie about the Forth Road Bridge and China again.

Incredible.


My GP and branch convener has proscribed my watching. Bad for blood pressure.

I believe China bought the Ravenscraig blast furnaces, though. What an irony.
 
 
# balgayboy 2012-03-02 12:30
Not in my city at present but I hope there is a fair number of Independent minded people outside this British/Unionist Labour Party Conference asking the conference participants as they enter the right questions..or at least embarrassing them...or just giving them a hard time would be suffice.
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-03-02 12:30
It's irrelevant as to who said what to whom,and when---
I choked on my Tesco's corn flakes this morning when a BBC journalist referred to "Labours' hard hitters",Douglas Alexander and someone whose name I can't remember,coming up here as MSP's in Scotland.

"Labours hard hitters". There you have it-----straight from the BBC's mouth.

"WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR,BUT FEAR ITSELF".

VOTE YES IN INDY REF.
 
 
# Angus 2012-03-02 12:56
Ed is not going to make any diferance to the dabte, infact he will probably do the SNP a favour with his appearance.
I hear they are putting on extra buses and trains from the North of England to get in their supporters, bit like a Puttin election raly in Moscow.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 14:12
I wonder if the millipede will have the same effect on SNP membership numbers as "Call me Dave" does? :D
 
 
# Conan the Librarian™ 2012-03-02 13:00
Off topic, but Alan Cochrane at the Telegraph seems to "Have done a Maddox".

What brought that on I wonder?
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-03-02 13:06
By that I assume you mean no comments are now being allowed on Cochrane's column. I put it down to a determination by the establishmment to limit the coverage given to pro independence comments. This is why I've begun calling unionists "suppressionists ".
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-03-02 13:06
I do wish people would post links with comments like this.
 
 
# Conan the Librarian™ 2012-03-02 13:14
So sorry.

telegraph.co.uk/.../...

All the comments on this post have been deleted apart from the two which were made today.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-03-02 13:55
Oh, I see now. Thank you.
 
 
# raisethegame 2012-03-02 13:23
Just been watching Andra Neil (Daily Politics) interviewing Jim Murphy on video link from Dundee about who be making the case for the union, who will lead the anti-independence campaign for Labour. It went along these lines:-
AN " as the campaign gets under way it will become a major event with lots of coverage and watched by millions on TV not only in the UK but across the world, " Who Mr Murphy, will lead the debate for Labour? " .
"Johann Lamont" was his first answer. "JOHANN LAMONT!!" scoffed AN.
JM then modified it to it would be the public who would make the case say and that in such TV debates anybody that was asked would represent labour.
AN "That's absurd Mr Murphy"
JM The people aren't interested in who will appear on a TV debate Andrew , they want to know about what would happen to the the pound , interest rates blah blah in a separate Scotland
AN dripping sarcasm proceded to skewer him re not standing on a platform with David Cameron to save the union and JM still said it wouldn;t be his thing. JM didn't mention Johann L again re who would lead the campaign for Labour - "it would be a team effort" he said.

AN also highlighted that he would be doing an interview with Alex Salmond on the Sunday Politics show
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 13:31
Right that's ma Sunday programming booked. Should be interesting. :)
 
 
# Diabloandco 2012-03-02 13:31
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
telegraph.co.uk/.../...

No comments allowed on this devious drivel - the man should be challenged big time , with big time lawyers.
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-03-02 13:55
"Mr Miliband is expected to echo the view of Scottish leader Johann Lamont, who argues the 300-year-old union is the best way to provide social justice for all residents of the United Kingdom."
Pre-speech leak.

'the 300-year-old union is the best way to provide social justice for all residents of the United Kingdom.'

I ask you to read the above,SLOWLY,in the context of the poverty in Scotland,awful housing, high suicide rates,CHRONIC unemployment,al coholism out of despair,I could go on ad infinitum.
Sounds like the 1930's again,does it not?

Milliband and Lamont come out with the above---"Provide Social justice for all".

You've had since World War 2 to give us that,and it's still,a wee bit at a time, drip,drip,drip.

We're NOT having it anymore,thankyo u very much.

We're taking our independence,re sources,etc, and doing something about it,IN Scotland

Scotland's poor deserve better than the Labour/Tory roadshows we've had for 60 years,and we're still waiting.
 
 
# lochside 2012-03-02 14:22
He should bring his brother up with him, shove him out on stage first, and then as Ed follows him out can experience that famous Glasgow Empire moment..'Christ, there's two them!'
On second thoughts he'd be better bringing Schnorbitz with him!
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-03-02 14:23
Not quite sure about the word 'regain' in the headline to this piece. When did Labour last show initiative?
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-03-02 14:29
O/T Anent the oil post-independence. This piece in the Guardian Reality Check is worth a read, as are the comments. guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# D_A_N 2012-03-02 16:14
Some good responses.. I'm starting to notice more and more newspapers being overwhelmed with pro-independence supporters and these comments also get way more 'likes' than that of the unionist arguments. Even places like the scotsman seem to be getting much more independence support in the comments.. This general attitude change is very encouraging.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 16:33
This so-called Reality Check series is rather strangely framed.

What happens is the day's "monitor" puts down a string of unionist ideas, which they seem to think are balanced because they are "received wisdom" and then say to commentators: Over to you!

You can imagine how long Severin Carroll's articles were and what they were like!

The valiant "sneeky" has probably baptised literally thousands of Guardian readers including journalists, in a field up to now left pretty much abandoned.

Amazing that some contributors still bleated about "intolerant nationalists" when they were getting an accelerated course in independence, what, how, why and when.
 
 
# Hing em high 2012-03-02 14:32
What a superb job Millibland is doing! Long may he continue to do it.

As for Wee Dougies speech, what an empty vacuous dribble. Is this a political heavyweight, I think not!

Anybody else note the half empty hall.
 
 
# parsonrussell 2012-03-02 14:37
Johann who??

Who is this person, did he not used to play for Celtic?
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 16:34
Or Barça perhaps? (on second thoughts, don't think she'd make the grade for either team).
 
 
# albafreedom 2012-03-02 14:42
O/T Well done Andy Murray.....keep the Saltire flying high....good luck wae the final.
Vote YES 2014!!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 15:39
alba, Andy Murray has just won! :D

He beat Novak Djokovic 6-2 7-5 in one hour and 22 minutes to reach the final in Dubai.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-03-02 17:02
Ya beauteeeeee!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:07
Can one assume one is pleased Holebender? :D
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 14:45
Slightly OT again (apologies), but this is interesting.

Blair Govt. fully aware of phone hacking.

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 14:50
Oops! Dearie dearie me! :D

Methinks quite a bit of the brown stuff shall shortly be having a close up and personal encounter with a ceiling fan! :D

I see Leveson has demanded the Reid report is handed over immediately. I wonder if Reid himself will be dragged screaming into the inquiry any time soon!
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 15:01
Better and better, they even knew that some of their own team were being hacked and didn't tell them.

My what a trustworthy bunch! :)
 
 
# admiral 2012-03-02 15:13
Joyce to step down according to the Grauniad (showing my age there!):

guardian.co.uk/.../...

PS Love the comment re Alex Salmond and a "much-needed" win. The metropolitan press - yecannaewhackra m, eh?

PPS the other interesting thing is that the article explicitly states that Ed the Red was the person responsible for suspending Eric the Foolish, not wee Johanna the Patsy. Despite "Scottish" Labour's protestations, this of course makes complete sense - why would a mere MSP be allowed to hold sway over a sizeable proportion of the Parliamentary Labour Party? The whole scenario of wee Johanna being in charge is a complete fiction.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-03-02 15:38
To step down AT THE NEXT GENERAL ELECTION.

Why am I not surprised?
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 15:23
If indeed Joyce steps down looks like we could be in for a race to the by-election.

The Labour M.P. for Bradford West has stepped down due to ill health. They are already talking about holding a by-election in his constituency in March/early April.

If Bradford win this race then I don't think there will be a by-election in Falkirk until June/July. I can't see Labour having the manpower/firepower to run two by-elections at the same time!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 15:25
Sorry for going O/T, ever so slightly here.

What on earth did they do to Red Ed to catch a picture like the one at the top of this article.

My mind is going into overdrive! :D
 
 
# Begbie 2012-03-02 15:29
PrideoftheClyde We owe nothing to anyone but we owe it to ourselves to finally break free from tory governments which a vast majority of Scots didn't want or vote for.

Spot on
We owe it to ourselves our children and our childrens children
 
 
# call me dave 2012-03-02 15:31
Well I am immersed listening to the speakers on the Labour Conference.

Took me back to the 70's same. .old stuff. The world has moved on and they haven't.

Cant see what they have to offer, and I'm looking and listening carefully, but as far as I'm concerned 'No Deal'.

The Murphy is on now - waxing lyrical about his our armed forces.
having a go at the Coalition for the cuts to the forces and those aircraft-carriers not able to land planes.

Nato now: he must be leading up to SNP allegedly not wanting to be in Nato.
There he goes just said it!

We'll loose our seat at the head table. . I thought we already shared a seat there and some of it belongs to us.

China and the Forth bridge it's that steel again its all the SNP's fault 'Motherwell can do it'.

The navy has never built a warship in a foreign yard! So we wont get any to build if were independent.

Rant (speech) over

Too depressing . . . darkened room.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 15:31
Any one up for a giggle or three? :D

CAUTION!

Watching this can seriously damage your health!

bbc.co.uk/.../...


Clear the "Darkened Room" many bodies expected to arrive shortly! :D

Come to think about it I've given up all hope already, just 5 minutes in!

TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!
 
 
# RTP 2012-03-02 15:48
MIlliband.
Better laugh on the TV now its AS choice to create unemployment of the young people.
 
 
# Begbie 2012-03-02 15:45
Thanks for that Arbroath
And i was having such a good day too

Key Please
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 15:48
Room's already open! :D

Perhaps as you go along to the "Darkened Room" you might like to think about this.

www.facebook.com/.../

Who said animals were dumb? :D
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-03-02 15:47
I see Morabund talking live on BBC News Channel at the Labour Conference
Interesting some camera shots showing some in the audience not clapping and looking a tad uncomfortable at some of the guff Red Ed is coming out with
 
 
# Exile 2012-03-02 16:32
A wonderful coinage, Old Smokey. Thanks. Ed Moribund indeed. This one definitely has legs. It'll run and run (as Brian Cox's character said in one of the Bourne films). LOL
 
 
# clootie 2012-03-02 19:41
Old Smokey

I think you are being a bit unfair on the audience. Most of them have been travelling all night on buses from England. They are tired.

- it's not easy moving activists around the country to maintain the illusion in Scotland.
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-03-02 15:48
Arbroath1320
Brian T and Johann L together!!

In all honesty,this particular 'interview',I just couldn't watch.

Really looking forward to Mr Miliband's speech.
I suppose the faithful are there to hear New Labour tell us,"It'll be alright on the night".
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 15:52
He's picked up Lamont's complaint about the steel for the Forth bridge. What are these people drinking?
 
 
# Hirta 2012-03-02 15:55
How many of the "faithful" will turn up? I have in my head an image of a half-filled hall such is the non-interest in Scottish Labour here :-)
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 15:56
And now BBC News has moved away from Ed's speech to deal with the really important topic of who might be the next England manager.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:02
I think I "suffered" about 5 minutes of it D.W. That's how long it took me to start writing my post, posting it and returning to EBC site. Just the sound of her voice is enough to make you want to down a bottle or three!
 
 
# clootie 2012-03-02 19:44
Well that's one theory busted - up until now I was wondering why we never seen the two of them at the same time...I had a theory..........
 
 
# hektorsmum 2012-03-02 15:51
Strange, the Independent have reported on the speech by Danny Alexander but have not even trailed the Labout conference, says much.
 
 
# Begbie 2012-03-02 15:53
LOL Now you have managed to cheer me up again.The pandas might not have been here long but already know whats best for our country
 
 
# scotsmanc1 2012-03-02 15:54
As I understand it from the Guardian article, Eric Joyce has indicated that he will stand down at the next General Election, which is three years away in 2015.

Could well be that he will be hanging on in there at the expenses trough in spite of the recent reported scandals including the possibility of a criminal conviction over the drinks brawl in the House of Commons bar.

Wonder what his constituents in Falkirk will say about this when they find out he is 'doing the right thing' for Eric Joyce of course.

Says it all really.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:08
Hold onto your hats everyone it is going to be a bumpy ride! :D

bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# clootie 2012-03-02 19:59
Ab1320

So if your family has French / Italian / Indian / Russian connections it is somehow of less value?
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 20:07
I guess so, but Spanish relations are O.K. :D
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-03-02 16:10
Miliband: "the UK is a redistributive union."
Yes? The redistribution is all in one direction.Fine he knows it.

Pleading to maintain the Union----why?
Tell us. WHY do you want the Union to continue.There must be a reason.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:16
They need our oil!:D

I think that is the answer he doesn't want to give D.W.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 16:43
'redistribution'

Sounds good saying a big word, but only if people don't know what it actually means.

PS Have just listened to Lamont's interview with Brian. She too is using the redistribution word. This idea should be so simple for the SNP to demolish totally. Redistribution means equality of wealth and investment, but there is no equality when it is mainly London and the Southeast who are benefitting from the redistribution of the wealth of Scotland's resources.

The Labour party have opened themselves up to ridicule.
 
 
# RTP 2012-03-02 16:16
Dundonian West 2012-03-02 15:48
Arbroath1320
Have just watched Taylor and Lamont she did not give one straight answer,when it came to Trident waffled on I always thought she was all for getting rid of it but she did say Joyce should go.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:26
Did she give a straight answer to anything RTP?

I heard her prattle on about how she had been a teacher, doing the usual anti A.S. stuff and her meanderings over defence/Trident. I gave up at that point. I didn't see much point in going any further. Is she capable of actually answering any question?

I'm quite sure if you asked her her name she would still manage to wangle in an attack on A.S. some how!
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 16:33
"My name's Johann Lamont, and that's not a claim that Alex Salmond can make while he's concentrating on putting up barriers between England and Scotland, barriers which won't even be made from Scottish steel".
 
 
# truth 2012-03-03 01:13
Quoting Jiggsbro:
"My name's Johann Lamont, and that's not a claim that Alex Salmond can make while he's concentrating on putting up barriers between England and Scotland, barriers which won't even be made from Scottish steel".


That really cheered me up. So funny!

On a serious note, you could actually imagine her saying that, and that is Labour's problem through and through.

They have nothing to offer, but playground nastiness.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 17:08
I watched the whole thing through (do I get a medal?) and noticed the same thing, not a single straight answer. Now, I don't expect politicians to anwer all questions straight and honest, but a few straight answers would be nice.

Anyway, I was distracted from her flowing prose by the setting, it looked very much like a Soviet hotel c. 1983, what with the bobbly looking chair, sidetable with artificial flowers, dirty-coloured heavy velvet curtains behind la Lamentable...

And what's with the hanky? In recent pictures she seems to be clutching a crumpled paper hanky in her right hand, as seen at FMQs and now. Is that her comfort blanket? If so, she sure needs a bigger one!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:14
I'll work on the medal idea lumi. In the meantime you have gone above and beyond the call of duty, no one should be forced to endure what you did. In recognition of your valiant efforts you are cordially invited to have an extended stay in the "Darkened Room!" :D

How does the Scottish Order of Remedial Energy (S.O.R.E.) sound as the name of a medal?
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 17:32
:D
I think they'll be lots of SOREs after Scotland becomes independent.

But back to Lamentable. It's not only that she fails to give straight answers but she does it so badly! Searching for words, waffling on... Her eyes straying to the side or upwards... (I think there are some body language experts who say that looking to the side means you're telling porkies.)

I've seen even SNP politicians not giving straight answers but at least their delivery is better so watching them isn't so cringeworthy.

And the hanky thing. I just watched the beginning of yesterday's FMQs and yes, she has a crumpled paper hanky there too. From now on I'll be on hanky watch.
 
 
# C2DEalba 2012-03-02 18:32
You should get a medal, I could not watch it all. Johann Lamont could not provide answers. Plus it was so obvious, I wonder what labour people thought about that.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-03-02 18:43
I managed to get to around 1.5 mins before I turned off.

First question: 'What's your policy on Free Student Education ?'

Lamont: I'd just like to start off by saying we're in the process of working our policy after last years defeat.... but I'd like to question Alex Salmond's policy...I was a teacher for 20 years and I can tell you there is no such thing as a free education.....the SNP..blah blah..

I just had to turn off. It absolute rubbish.

However, it lays our path clear, at every opportunity we should be forcing Labour in Scotland to tell us their policies and if they differ from Westminster. Like the lack of a positive case for the union, they have no answers to anything. They have just become a mouthpiece and not a political party anymore, it's an absolute travesty.

No policies + No vision = No chance.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 19:28
Pity you couldn't hang on until she was asked about defence.:D

I think listening to her answer on that one she left me with the impression that she was teaching a dug to chase it's own tail!
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 20:07
Well, to me, Labour's only policy seems to be to oppose anything and everything the SNP does, which has landed them in pretty weird situations, like opposing their own amendment in the Stirling Council budget and then going to bed with the Tories and voting for something that supposedly isn't their party policy in Scotland.

How can anybody take this travesty of a party seriously?? (Well, they certainly take themselves very seriously.)

But on a more serious note, I'd say that it's to the detriment to Scottish democracy that there isn't a proper, serious opposition to SNP at Holyrood.

It's not the SNP's fault if the main opposition party behave like tantruming three-year-olds and the Tories and LibDems are in the schitzophrenic situation of being in power in Westminster and in opposition in Holyrood.

I'm watching Scottish politics from abroad, so maybe with a bit of perspective, and unionist party antics are a carcrash in slow motion.

After SNP's landslide they chose new leaders. The LibDems at least acted quickly, maybe too quickly, because they got the ineffectual and increasingly foolish-looking Willie Rennie.

Tories went with Ruth "Action Krankie" Davidson, presumably because she was supposed to be loyal to her Westminster masters (that has of course unravelled a bit, with RD and DC speaking at cross-purposes). From where I'm looking, Murdo Fraser seemed (and still seems) by far the most able of the candidates. Someone who could've actually inspired right-of-centre voters in Scotland. But he of course ran on a platform of disbanding the Conservative and Unionist Party in Scotland and rebranding it as the Scottish right-of-centre party. Westminster could have none of that. MF is playing the long game. He might not want Scotland to leave the UK, but if and when that happens, he wants to lead his right-of-centre party in an independent Scotland.

As to the Labour leadership election... The system is so convoluted and undemocratic that electing the Pope seems like the height of democracy! The result? Trade union (and Westminster) favourite la Lamentable. Tom "Uncle Tom" Harris was an irrelevance, he didn't even want the job, but it would've looked embarrassing if they only had one or two candidates so he stood. As to the candidate whose name Millipede couldn't remember (says it all really), he was the favourite of the party membership in Scotland. I think Ken Macintosh is just as toxic as la Lamentable but at least he's a better communicator. He might've been able to lift Labour's support in Scotland.

All in all, the Westminster parties chose new leaders from their own narrow point of view, completely unaware of the fact that Scottish politics have irrecovably changed since devolution. They're making the case for independence with their own blundering and patronising ways.

Sorry, long post. :D
 
 
# Bambi 2012-03-02 16:46
Get rid of Joyce (but only when it's convenient for SLAB)
Keep Trident (to keep the Britnats happy)
Keep going on about 'increased' devolution to keep the Scots electorate happy
Keep quiet about what Devo Mebbes might consist of
Keep the Union ('cos it helps BritLAB and keeps the Britnats happy)

Straight as a die.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 20:32
The one question that Brian didn't ask and it is very relevant. How can the Scottish people trust the unionists to come up with a decent system for the Scottish government when they have failed in their promises to them in the past?
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-03-02 16:18
Latest from BBC North Britain.

'Eric Joyce will stand down in 2015'

bbc.co.uk/.../...

'Clegg declares Lib Dem fightback'

bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:22
I've just been scouring the EBC website and came across this little ditty on the EBC Scotland page.

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Now I know that I am over 21 and my brain is no longer what it used to be. However, the last time I checked, and I have just doubled checked to be sure, Thornton was on the A92 between Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes, and that is nowhere near Dunfermline!

So, unless Thornton has mysteriously moved, which I seriously doubt, I think dear old EBC Scotland have got their facts wrong again!

Can some one PLEASE make sure that Pacific Quay have an up to date road atlas of Scotland, not one from 1214!

Thank You! :D
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 16:42
Education is not what it used to be regarding BBC employees.
 
 
# Juteman 2012-03-02 16:23
So it has changed from the 'too wee. too poor' message, to we are mates, and mates stick together?
I think i'm going to be sick.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 16:32
Do mates steal all your money and spend it on themselves. Do they abuse and threaten you into staying mates.
 
 
# RTP 2012-03-02 16:30
Lamont says money comes from the richest part of the country London and South East in an interview on radio seemed to backtract when asked if Scotland was to wee to manage on its own worth a listen

Good Morning Scotland's David Millar,
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:35
They are falling over themselves.:D

Their left hand doesn't know what their right is doing!

bbc.co.uk/.../...

How is this going to work in with "Call me Dave's" jam tomorrow thesis?

Has Bendy Wendy's wee brother passed these ideas passed Red Ed?

What about the lamentable one?

Has she seen Bendy's wee bro's plans?
 
 
# From The Suburbs 2012-03-02 16:36
BBC reports that Con Dems have bussed schoolkids into Eden Court to hear Nick Clegg but hall was still more than half empty for the "star" attraction.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 16:40
Kids bussed in to hear Nick Clegg.

Isn't that child abuse?
 
 
# Juteman 2012-03-02 16:41
Yip. Even the kids shouted abuse at Nick.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:49
Does that count as shooting down the "too stupid" remarks made about Scotland by the unionists then? :D
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 16:57
Why would they be allowed to bus in random children?
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:06
They were probably hoping that the kids would fall into the 16/17 year old age bracket that A.S. wants to be allowed to vote in the referendum. The same group that the Lib/Dems now do notwant to have the vote, despite promising exactly this in the 2010 election campaign!

The Lib/Dems probably banked on "buying" their votes. Our kids are not as dumb as our Wastemonster politicians are, are they? :D
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:47
I think it says everything when the Lib/Dems, and more than likely Labour too, have to bus in people to sit and listen to their respective dreadful speakers.

Even when they bus in people they probably still can't fill their respective halls.

On the other hand the SNP are turning people away because there is no more room!
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-03-02 19:25
Jings. I drove as fast as I prudently could up the A9 in October, because I had to work that morning. I got to Inverness half an hour before Alex Salmond's speech. Seat in the auditorium? Don't make me laugh. CCTV link. And I don't think anyone was bussing anyone in.
 
 
# doonhamer 2012-03-02 17:47
Quoting J Wil:
Kids bussed in to hear Nick Clegg.

Isn't that child abuse?



It is all part of the Natural History curriculum and may be that last chance to see a LibDem before their inevitable extinction. Many of Scotland`s remaining living fossils will be in attendance.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:58
LOL! :D
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 20:35
Butter would not melt in Clegg's mouth when he starts to spout the high flying principles, but he is on sticky ground going on past promises.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 21:34
Quote:
It is all part of the Natural History curriculum and may be that last chance to see a LibDem before their inevitable extinction. Many of Scotland`s remaining living fossils will be in attendance.


Curriculum for Excellence in action! :D
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 16:43
Wasn't this the same place where the last SNP conference was held?

As was pointed out above, the SNP managed to fill the main hall and another smaller halls besides.

Boy I bet the school kids were well impressed. That is those that were able to stay awake long enough to hear anything useful from the speaker. Remind again, who was he?
 
 
# Exile 2012-03-02 16:47
I reckon they'd have to stay awake a gey long time for that.
 
 
# Juteman 2012-03-02 16:54
Did the kids have any say in this?
A favourite story of mine is about when Queen Betty visited Dundee in the '60's. As primary school kids, we were led out onto the street with mini Union Jacks to wave as she drove past.
It was pouring of rain that day, and my mother heard what was happening, marched up to the teacher, and dragged us kids back into the school.
I can barely remember it, but seemimgly her 'vocabulary' was rather choice, and involved words like 'death of cold' and 'royal parasites'.
What a mum! :)
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:01
I'm sure the kids would have jumped at the chance Juteman. After all they would be inside in the hall. Secondly it gets them out of afternoon classes, always a bonus with school kids I reckon. :D

I just wonder how much warning they were given that they were going to Eden Court to listen endure a speech by Nick Clegg.

From reports here it sounds very much like they were all very impressed with him..........NOT!
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 20:40
We were all bussed (that word again) 15 miles to Thornhill to see her, just before her entourage turned right to go up Dalveen Pass, missing our own village entirely. I cannot remember much about it, except the big RR car.

I think Thornhill qualified for a visit because it was the Duke of Buccleugh's dukal village and near Drumlanrig Castle.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:10
It is official!

Scotland needs a Labour government.

Aye like a hole in the head Bubba!

bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Juteman 2012-03-02 17:21
Maybe an independant Scotland will have a Labour government?
This is the approach i'm using at work with die hard Labour folk. They say they won't vote for independence as they don't want a SNP government. When i tell them that a general election will be called to elect a government after independence, and they can vote for whoever they like, a light bulb goes off.
I don't think enough folk realise that a vote for independence isn't a vote for permanent SNP government.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 17:50
Exactly!

An independent Scotland won't be a one-party state, whatever the unionist are trying to scaremonger. If the Holyrood election system (partly FPTP, partly PR) was kept, that would ensure a plurality of voices in the Scottish Parliament. The political parties, especially the old unionist parties, will face a major reshuffle, some might even disappear but others would take their place. Parties that concentrate on Scottish politics for Scottish people, not London politics for the party.

I watched the clip and read the blurb in Arbroath's link, and my first reactions were:
1. Apprenticeships ? Didn't Labout vote against an SNP budget that provided more apprenticeships than Labour wanted?
2. Change Britain's borders??? The only one I've heard talking about changing borders was a unionist who was scaremongering about passport controls at Hadrian's Wall.
3. Then he enthused about working for a fairer society that we all want or some such. Well, sounds like an advertisement for independence, that one.

Keep up the good work, Millipede. You've got plenty of feet to shoot yourself in.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-03-02 18:17
Now that's funny!
#;)
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-02 20:44
"I don't think enough folk realise that a vote for independence isn't a vote for permanent SNP government."

I have seen this too. I don't know how folk can come to that conclusion.
 
 
# megsmaw 2012-03-02 22:50
I told my Labour voting mother in law this - that after we're independent there will be a general election where you can vote for whoever you want, a vote for independence is NOT a vote for a SNP dictatorship (even if the unionists seem to think so). The SNP would probably reform into something new as their prime goal had been achieved. This seemed to click and now I'm happy to say she's a definate YES for 2014.

My father in law on the other hand needs more convincing. He's been watching too much BBC and thinks if we go independent the apocalypse will happen we'll end up like Greece. He's willing to change his mind if facts/figures are produced. I will direct him to newsnet pronto.

My own family are all pro independence so there's no worries there. But I'm glad I've got newsnet to give me facts I can pass on to folk.
 
 
# Juteman 2012-03-02 17:10
I've posted it before, but am i the only one who thinks 'Ronald Villiers' was based on Johnny Lamont?
www.youtube.com/.../
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:20
I think you could be onto something there Juteman. :D
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 17:28
Danny Alexander's positive case for the union (on BBC News): "we fought fascism together and built the NHS together". His 'constructive' argument: "Alex Salmond is failing".
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 17:41
Wouldn't have mentioned the NHS myself, especially as a Liberal.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 17:56
My mistake: Douglas Alexander.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-03 23:02
Natural mistake to make - and does it make any difference in the real world, Jiggsbro?
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 17:59
Quote:
Danny Alexander's positive case for the union (on BBC News): "we fought fascism together and built the NHS together".


KABOOM!
Another unionist shot in the foot.
Because the way it looks now, the LibDems want to dismantle the NHS together...

Scotland's health services will be weaker together, stronger apart.

Jeesh! What is it with these Westminster politicians, even the ones from Scotland? Are they completely stupid? Are they really so out of touch with people in Scotland? Are they really so in thrall to power in London?
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-03-02 17:34
O/T but can I commend the comment on this thread on The Grauniad at 9.01am today by Peter Bell. He completely turns the tables on their reality check for Jockland series.

Well said Peter.

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 17:34
I'm sorry to go O/T again, but is it just me or does any one else think this is an impossible situation.

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Specifically the first sentence.

Quote:
A man allegedly secretly filmed kissing a US university student, days before he killed himself, has told a court he noticed a webcam in the dormitory room.



I know science can do wonderful things but to kill yourself and then re-materialise for the trial, WOW!
 
 
# doonhamer 2012-03-03 00:55
next week he is writing the Labour Council manifesto in Glasgow... after all the dead can vote and need a voice in the program.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-03 01:13
LOL. :D
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-03-02 17:35
Here's the text of Eck's speech this morning -

scotland.gov.uk/.../...

Just how will the unionist media be able to turn it into a nastynat story compared to Moribund's whiny negativity / tantrum which comes out as 'Its just no fair'.
 
 
# scotsmanc1 2012-03-02 17:45
Thanks for this MJM

The link you provided cheered me up no end after listening to the hostility towards the SNP by Labour again today

Their negativity continues unabated.
Refreshing stuff from Alex Salmond.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 17:53
There is simply no comparison between the positive, constructive, forward-looking arguments made by the FM and the negative, 'past glories', 'we'll do better next time' waffle from Ed, Danny and Nick.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 18:08
Ach they'll probably accuse him of giving lectures whilst there are political conferences on!"
 
 
# Flora Macoo 2012-03-02 18:13
Quoting Mad Jock McMad:
Just how will the unionist media be able to turn it into a nastynat story compared to Moribund's whiny negativity / tantrum which comes out as 'Its just no fair'.


Got one! Take the paragraph "The journey to independence has many stations, but only one terminus. And although the UK government has not yet recognised it, we are already far past the Scotland Bill stop." This clearly gives:

Salmond Accused of Pandering to Homophobic Souter

Well it makes as much sense as some of the other drivel they spout...
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 18:21
Ah think ye'll find he's bein' positive deliberately. :)
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 18:50
What a mature, balanced speech, respectful of the people and political opponents, facts, a few good-natured digs and a touch of humour (loved the bit about political asylum for Tian Tian and Yang Guang). Would've loved to hear it live, AS is a very good public speaker, very good delivery and rhythm. He'd sound good even if he was talking absolute guff, which he isn't.

In contrast, the unionist politicians and media... sigh...

The Westminster politicians seem completely out of touch with what's going on in Scotland, and the Holyrood unionist politicians... It's like their parties treat Holyrood as some kind of political preschool, before the most talented (??? no, make that party faithful) will get a shot at the "real" Parliament in Westminster. As a consequence, many unionist Holyrood politicians (especially Labour) behave like preschoolers. Contrast that with SNP politicians, who are mostly mature, reasonable and focussed on their job, representing the people of Scotland.

I don't doubt the unionist media will find much to deride in the speech. There were a couple of places where even I knit my brows a bit. But compared to the inanity coming from Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, not to mention new best friends Lords FF, Hague, and others, Salmond comes across as competent, reasonable and even statesmanlike.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 17:37
Apparently Ed believes that "One of the first acts of the next Labour government will be to say that if companies want major government contracts they must offer apprenticeships for the next generation".

Good luck with forcing European firms to give apprenticeships to British youths. And good luck with getting UK firms to make competitive bids when you force them to add in the cost of taking on apprentices.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-03-02 17:53
It's worth looking at Clegg's stuff in a wee bit of detail.

"We live side-by-side in towns and cities across the British Isles.

Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish people are together every day, in offices and factories, school classrooms and playing fields.

We have rallied together in hard times, our forefathers fought together and died together, just as brave Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish service men and women are fighting side by side in faraway lands right now.

For centuries we have crossed each others borders, married each other, raised families together.

What Scot doesn't have any English, Welsh or Northern Irish in their family tree?"


It's a peculiar line to make for someone married to a Spaniard. Does that mean we should be in a single state with the Spanish?

During the war, my Dad fought alongside those from South Africa, the Isle of Man and the Irish Republic in his unit. Neighbouring units came from France, the USA, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Does that mean that Westminster should rule all these places?

Our current service men and women are also fighting alongside allies from many countries, and the British Army includes the Ghurkas, for heaven's sake! Does he want to extend the Empire to Nepal?

"In offices and factories, school classrooms and playing fields", Scots are also alongside Poles and other Eastern Europeans, Pakistanis and others coming from South Asia.

People get on, co-operate, live together (in every sense) without the need for political union.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 18:02
Perhaps he is advocating the U.K. becomes the 51st state of the U.S.A.

How are you with singing the "Star Spangled Banner"?
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 18:14
Don't know, Arbroath, but another but related O/T - see the Guardian headline about what it calls "outsourcing" of the police:

"The breathtaking list of policing activities up for grabs includes investigating crimes, detaining suspects, developing cases, responding to and investigating incidents, supporting victims and witnesses, managing high-risk individuals, patrolling neighbourhoods, managing intelligence, managing engagement with the public, as well as more traditional back-office functions, such as managing forensics, providing legal services, managing the vehicle fleet, finance and human resources."

This could affect Scotland, even if independent.

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 18:25
I love this part of the piece.

Quote:
The breathtaking list of policing activities up for grabs includes investigating crimes, detaining suspects, developing cases, responding to and investigating incidents, supporting victims and witnesses, managing high-risk individuals, patrolling neighbourhoods, managing intelligence, managing engagement with the public, as well as more traditional back-office functions, such as managing forensics, providing legal services, managing the vehicle fleet, finance and human resources.



So remind me again, what exactly will the police in England and Wales be doing?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-03-02 18:29
Fortunately, European competition laws don't apply to member states as such, but to individual markets within these states. Hence, although England intends to open up its NHS (and now police) to competition, it won't affect Scotland where the principle of "social solidarity" prevents competition being forced on our public services.
 
 
# C2DEalba 2012-03-02 18:39
Truly scary stuff, profit from arresting people is a big mistake. Minium targets for arrests on this basis is a recipe for disaster for the ordinary people.

Ed says england aint right wing. Rubbish, they love this kind of thing.
 
 
# Robabody 2012-03-02 19:03
I can see it all now Marga - dial 999 and ask for the AA - your other emergency service
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 22:52
Has a grisly ring of truth, Robabody.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 20:43
Quote:
...our forefathers fought together and died together,...


This is the bit where I sort of stopped.

Now, English is not my first language, but couldn't this also be read as "fought in the same battles and died in the same battles (but on opposing sides)"? Maybe not, but that was the first thought that sprang to my mind, knowing the old history between the English, the Welsh, the Irish and the Scots, who've fought many a battle against each other.

I think Gleggy wanted to refer to more recent events, WWI and WWII in particular, but the word "forefathers" rather evokes something more ancient, medieval... (I'm only in my early forties and both my grandpas fought in 1918 and then again in 1939. I wouldn't call them my forefathers.)

And his point about "brave Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish service men and women are fighting side by side in faraway lands right now" is a good advertisement for Scottish independence. Would an independent Scotland have gone to an illegal war in Iraq? Afghanistan? (Iran? Syria? Anyone?)

There are Finnish soldiers serving in Afghanistan, under the UN peace keeping flag (my cousin's husband has done three tours of duty). I would imagine that an independent Scotland would contribute to UN peace keeping efforts.

As to offices, factories, school rooms, playgrounds... Is Cleggy saying you can't be friends if you come from another independent country? (This from a man who's married to a foreigner!)

Another poor effort from the unionists.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-03-03 07:40
We have had the hard sell, now its the soft sell. It will be back to hard again soon (Armageddon like).

It wid bring a tear to a gless ee!
 
 
# steveb 2012-03-02 18:23
nytimes.com/.../...

good evening folks, this is the first chance I have had to post this link, maybe it's already been posted.

It's always interesting to see some news from outside the UK media.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-03-02 21:09
Interesting steveb and not unfamiliar:

"But if Scotland votes “yes,” the responsibility will fall less on Mr. Salmond than on the incompetence of the Unionist campaign. Its tactless bluster has been hardening the Scottish impression of near-colonialist arrogance and deafness to their wishes. Paradoxically, Scottish independence could turn out to be the best guarantee of a friendlier relationship between England and the ancient, obstinate little nation on its northern border. "
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 18:54
Also on the Guardian - Mr Murphy (Now you see me, now you don't) on defence and independence.

guardian.co.uk/.../...

Enjoy! :)
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 19:04
Thanks for the link.

The incompetence of the unionists has also been noted across the pond.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 19:25
This constantly bringing up the NHS. We need to return to the name and brand Scottish Health Service. Which is what it was until Forsyth took exception to the word Scottish and the perceived difference to the NHS (England). Even clowns like Milliband and Alexander don't seem to understand there is no NHS. Get the name changed that way everyone will grasp there is no NHS. There is a Scottish Health Service.
 
 
# From The Suburbs 2012-03-02 19:51
Good point Juteman "Maybe an independant Scotland will have a Labour government?"

We should be asking the London Parties what policies they have for an independent Scotland on defence, currency etc, etc .

In Labour's case Independence could well come before they ever get back into power at Westminster.
 
 
# Hamish100 2012-03-02 19:55
From the BBC ---the lib dems bussed in school children to make their hall seem bigger for Mr Clegg ---hope they filled in a parent consent form? --must be something to do with curriculum for excellence---

Tomorrow we have Mrs Grahame /Lamont speaking at the labour conference, no doubt denouncing her pal Eric Joyce---I do hope she will follow this up by denouncing the shenanigans in her back- yard of Pollok and Glasgow --ie bullying and sexist male Labour Councillor's threatening female "colleagues". I suppose she will leave that to her hubby --deputy Leader of the labour party in Glasgow ---or maybe not.

Mind you fantastic planning by the libs and labour to choose the same time for their conferences --confusing for everyone.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 19:56
So if the unionists want to keep the Status Quo, sort of, how about this?

www.facebook.com/.../

Will that count as the Status Quo? :D
 
 
# freeussoon 2012-03-02 20:00
Not sure if this has been posted already..."Eric Joyce to stand down"


guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 20:28
Once he has collected as much money and expenses as he can. Are Labour sure they want rid of him he sounds at home.
 
 
# DonaldMhor 2012-03-02 20:11
Some photies from Dundee that tell the story of Labour in Scotland , in fact labour in the UK. They look what they are down and out.


tiny.cc/gbnjb




What a sad sorry looking bunch.
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 20:23
That's absolutely brilliant! ROFLMAO :D))
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 20:26
Wow full to capacity! Labour are starting to challenge the Tories for the youth vote!
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 22:18
The unionists split their support holding the Labour and Lib Dem conferences the same weekend. They split their supporters. They don't know who's conference to attend!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 22:20
I guess booking a double phone box combo in Dundee or Inverness was out of the question then?
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 20:37
Absolutely agree Macart. :D

Can't make up my mind:

1) Were the pics funnier than the descriptions.

OR

2) Were the descriptions funnier than the pics.
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 20:57
There appeared to be quite a few empty seats in between all the depressed faces. Apparently Mr Milliband is not the draw he thought he was. :)
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 21:11
Surely not Macart! :D

You must have been watching a cartoon!

We are talking about the next party of Scotland.

Shoorley you have made some mishtake?
 
 
# Macart 2012-03-02 21:15
:D On this evidence, not long now Arb. Empty seats and grim faces, not good omens for Johann.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 21:18
I wonder how many tickets have been sold for the great goddess's grand appearance tomorrow?
 
 
# call me dave 2012-03-02 20:32
Quoting DonaldMhor:
Some photies from Dundee that tell the story of Labour in Scotland , in fact labour in the UK. They look what they are down and out.


tiny.cc/gbnjb




What a sad sorry looking bunch.




Every picture tells a story!

Remember they want to run Scotland -
Let's say that again,
They want to run Scotland!
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 21:17
PMSL!
The pics were dismal but the captions made them brilliant!

Now, it's beginning to seem that the Labour party in Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid.

Where have we heard that one before?
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-03-02 21:22
LOL. Brilliant.

May is going to be a lot of fun.
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-03-02 21:27
I can't get link to work times out:(
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 21:30
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-03-02 21:47
Thanks Arb I wonder whose wake they were at!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 21:49
Erm, Labour's! :D
 
 
# Mark 2012-03-02 22:21
Thank you Arb
I have not laughed this much in ages, it is so very very witty.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 22:26
We aim to please! :D
 
 
# Hirta 2012-03-02 22:32
Classic!

Check oot Stairheid Rammy :-O)
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 21:27
Having looked at the pics, I have one question.

Would it not have been better, and cheaper, for the Labour party to hire a phone box for the day? :D
 
 
# creag an tuirc 2012-03-03 00:36
This is what happens when you've got nothing positve to say. The sooner Labour split into an independence branch, the sooner they can be positive about Scotland and implement those good old values they used to have. Na, never going to happen.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-03 00:40
Labour.....Positivity about Scotland ......good values.

Na. sorry creag. Does Not Compute! :D
 
 
# Hamish100 2012-03-02 21:25
A point that we must not forget is that Milliband & Clegg are unlikely to survive the 2015 Westminster election so any promises aren't worth a penny---

mind you they are not worth a penny even if they did survive..

Dear David will soon forget about Scotland thereafter
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 22:19
That's not a good thing. The UK only has 2 parties the Condems or Labour dems. With nothing between them.
 
 
# peter,aberdeenshire 2012-03-02 21:38
Radio Scotland played a part of Ed's, was he not a duck, speech. The bit I heard was whem Johann and I came into politics...,delivered in the most nauseating shallow nasal tone I have ever heard. The question though is this, does even the most die hard Scottish Labour voter really think this guy represents all or some of their views and beliefs?
 
 
# alicmurray 2012-03-02 22:08
guardian.co.uk/.../...

Going offline but please read the latest bonkers idea from the ToryDems.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 22:20
Fortunately for Scotland we are seperate and that doesn't effect us. That could become a rallying cry!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 22:25
I wonder if "Call me Dave" will try and force this ridiculous idea upon us if we vote NO as part of the jam tomorrow package that he "might" consider!
 
 
# Hirta 2012-03-02 22:28
One suspects CMD currently has something closer at home to deal with: telegraph.co.uk/.../...

(sri for the t-graph link)
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 23:11
Read that link and it gave a chilling picture of UK politics, and MSM reporting of it.

Did or did not DC ride the b****y horse? So that's the story, not important policy questions, such as the welfare reform or the NHS reform or any reform of FSA etc. Just, did the toff ride that horse or not.

I despair.

Scotland, get out while you can!
 
 
# moujick11 2012-03-02 22:27
Read that link and then read the one below, particularly the bit that reads, "As ever, it's presented as a matter of saving money, but if the idea spreads as cuts in police numbers kick in and G4S's CEO takes home the obligatory millions (£1.42m last year), will anyone be convinced?"

guardian.co.uk/.../...

Boy, do we need to be Independent
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-03-02 22:28
We are going to have to build those border controls, aren't we? That or find a way to house 40 million English asylum seekers.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-03-02 23:29
Berwick should hold a referendum. Good spot for a major Scottish port again.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 23:35
Building the wall and border controls sounds good to me!:D
 
 
# govanite 2012-03-02 22:25
A softball for FMQs I think.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-03-02 22:35
Ah, yes, this has been mentioned above.

Bonkers. No, not bonkers, scary. Private police, accountable to their shareholders. Or organised crime worming their way into privatised policing.

I suppose this is the logical conclusion of Maggie Thatcher's famous pronouncement that there is no society.

Whereas I think the function of state and society (which often but not always coincide) is to work for the benefit of all its citizens. This includes the old-fashioned idea of democracy and upholding public peace and the law of the land, educating the young, looking after the old and the sick, boring stuff like that.

Policing is the last thing that should be privatised. Organised crime will find their way to the companies that run policing.
 
 
# Nautilus 2012-03-02 22:25
It’s a joke. ‘If you Scots vote NO in the forthcoming referendum, we will give your country some more powers.’ Say all the unionistas. What a b****y nerve. It’s like saying to a country like Denmark (population c.5 million) ‘We will allow your citizens to run your country.’

Why on earth would we even listen to the views of a government 400 miles away from our main centre of population in another country whose philosohpy is as alien to our culture as this one is? I would rather be ruled from Oslo than London.They seem to be nearer our wavelength. London has lost touch with the rest of the British Isles.

Forget it, London, we will vote YES to independence and have all the powers we want.

They are the CITY STATE OF LONDON.We are another country called SCOTLAND.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 23:01
Yet another benifit of being in the union methinks!

bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-02 23:32
Found this article in the Scotsman.

Interesting piece by George Kerevan.

scotsman.com/.../...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-03 00:07
Oh dear. Just when the unionists think they have one set of rebels "under control" another set of rebels pops up!

independent.co.uk/.../...

As if this is not bad enough, some idiot let everybody's favourite "historian" out last night onto Question Time.

dailymail.co.uk/.../...

Oh dear will they never learn at the EBC!

It just doesn't stop for the Tories does it?

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Oops!
 
 
# km 2012-03-03 00:49
Clegg said, ""What Scot doesn't have any English, Welsh or Northern Irish in their family tree? I believe the bonds that bring us together are stronger than the forces that would tear us apart."

Following this logic, since we are all related to Lucy, England should form a union with Ethiopia.
 
 
# Early Ball 2012-03-03 00:54
So where does Jock Tamson fit in?

Just saw a repeat of Skeletor getting filleted by Andrew Neil. Please let Jim lead the NO campaign.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-03 01:12
He'll have scurried off back under the rock that the Daily Politics dragged him out from under yesterday!
 
 
# Alan 2012-03-03 17:37
He forgot to mention all those who have Irish in their family tree. Why aren't they campaigning to have Ireland join the union? What about Australia, New Zeeland, Canada USA etc. Are Scots torn apart from their kith and kin in such places?
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-03 00:49
Looks like the battle over Scottish Independence has even reached the shores of Iran.

www.presstv.ir/.../225789.html
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-03-03 01:39
CAUTION! :D

The lamentable one has awoken!

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Quote:
Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont will tell her party to stop saying sorry for past mistakes, and start fighting for Scotland.



I'm sorry.

Have I missed something here?

Exactly when did Labour start to apologise for their past indiscretions!

I think some one had better have a word in the lamentable one's lug that until Labour start to apologise they are on a hiding to nothing.

Oops, I forgot.

Labour don't do sorry!

P.S.

Dear Labour, in case your are the slightest bit interested, which I know you aren't, we have a project going ahead to supply wave power to the Islse of Lewis.

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Can't go it on our own indeed.

Huh!
 
 
# Des58 2012-03-03 07:42
Quite like this summary by "dadsarmy" over in a thread on the Guardian:
"In all seriousness the opposition is a total shambles.

1). Independence. This is clear-cut. It's a country. It's a state. It decides its future.
- - Fully supported by the SNP, Green, SSP
2). Devo-max. Supported by Civic Scotland etc.
- - No political party support
3). Devo-Plus. Reform Scotland (mixed ex-party members).
- - Supported by themselves
4). Devo-other.
- - Supported by Labour
5). Devo-maybe-never.
- - Supported by Conservatives
6). No idea
- - Supported by Liberal Democrats
7). No change
- - Only supported by a second question on the ballot sheet"

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 

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