By a Newsnet reporter

Both the SNP and Labour have made gains in Scotland's local elections at the expense of the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

The SNP is Scotland's biggest party in terms of vote share and number of councillors returned, taking majority control of Dundee and Angus.  The party also overtook Labour as the largest in North Ayrshire and Stirling.  Scottish councils now contain a total of 424 SNP councillors, up 61 from the previous local elections, Labour increased their tally by 48, to 394.

In Dundee, where every one of the 16 candidates put forward by the SNP was elected, Dundee West MSP Joe Fitzpatrick said:

"This truly is historic for the SNP in Dundee.  I am absolutely thrilled that my home city has voted clearly to become an SNP city.  In 2007 the SNP held no majorities. I am pleased Angus and Dundee have delivered the first two majority administrations for the SNP.

"We have a strong track record since taking over as a minority, and voters come out today and given us a strong vote of confidence."

The SNP won the most first preference votes in Dundee and Aberdeen, SNP representation increased by 6 seats in Edinburgh and by 5 in Glasgow with a swing from Labour to the SNP in first preferences across Glasgow. Labour failed to win a single extra seat in Glasgow.

Increased councillors were also secured in North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Fife, and the Borders as the SNP widened the national gap with Labour.  SNP councillors will now discuss the way forward for administrations across the country.

Though the SNP made gains, they failed to overtake Labour as the largest party in Glasgow, seen as one of the party's key targets.

Labour remain the largest party in Glasgow, and are celebrating the regaining the majority they recently lost after a series of resignations by sitting Labour councillors.

Labour are also celebrating taking control in Renfrewshire and West Dunbartonshire.  However they lost overall control of Midlothian where the SNP gained two council seats and the Greens gained one.

The Lib Dems bore the brunt of voter anger and had a catastrophic result.  Thursday's vote saw the party lose 95 council seats, leaving them with just 71 of the 166 they held before the election.  In Clackmannanshire, East Lothian, Midlothian, North Ayrshire and Stirling, the Lib Dems lost all of their sitting councillors.  

In many parts of the country Nick Clegg's party was humiliated.  In North Lanarkshire the party's sole sitting councillor managed to obtain just 223 votes, while in one ward in Edinburgh the Lib Dems gained fewer first preferences than a joke candidate, Professor Pongoo, a 6-foot penguin.

The party did especially poorly in the capital, losing 13 out of their 16 sitting councillors.  Edinburgh's Liberal Democrat council leader, Jenny Dawe, failed to be re-elected.  Ms Dawe said the UK coalition was the biggest factor in Lib Dem losses and not the city's controversial tram project.

Willie Rennie, leader of the Lib Dems in Scotland, said: "These results should dispel any myth that the Liberal Democrats are only in the coalition for ourselves. This is a very distressing day."

Although the Conservatives managed to pick up a few seats in areas where they are traditionally strong, overall the party lost 28 seats.

There was better news for the Scottish Greens who almost doubled their representation across the country.  Patrick Harvie, leader of the party said: "To nearly double the number of councillors we have in Scotland - which is mirrored by our sister party south of the border - leaves lots of happy Green faces walking away from the count in Glasgow.

It's very hard when everyone in the media are talking about Labour and the SNP, it's hard to make that breakthrough."

All parties will be concerned by the relatively low turnout.  Although the actual turnout was not quite as low as some feared, only around 38% of Scots bothered to vote.

Across the UK the pattern of Conservative and Lib Dem losses was repeated.

Labour gained over 800 council seats in England and Wales and took control of 23 councils in England and 6 in Wales.  The Conservatives lost 418 seats and the Lib Dems 366.  The sole bright spot for David Cameron was the likelihood that Boris Johnson would hold onto his seat as mayor of London.

Welcoming the excellent results and continued growth in support for the SNP Scotland’s First Minister and SNP leader Alex Salmond said

"With over 420 councillors, an increase of around 60 on 2007 and double the lead over Labour the SNP has won Scotland's election.

"This is a great win for the SNP and for Scotland.  Five years after backing the SNP for the first time Scotland continues to move forward with the only national party. That is a substantial achievement.

"This year the SNP has secured our first two overall majorities in Dundee and Angus and the SNP has become the largest political party in 10 local authorities, far more than in 2007. That is a major step forward for the SNP and for Scotland.

"In 2007 we were the largest party in only 7 authorities and held no majorities.

"The SNP has won seats from Labour, from the Lib Dems and from the Tories in all parts of Scotland, urban and rural. We set ourselves the target of securing more councillors and we have met that target with around 60 extra councillors.

"This is a tale of two governments. The Lib Dems and Tories have had a disastrous day, feeling the full force of the Scottish people who have rejected their damaging austerity agenda in favour of the SNP locally and nationally.

"And in Labour's heartlands it is clear that Fortress Glasgow is no more.  Labour's campaign stalled in Glasgow with not a single extra seat while the SNP increased our number of councillors and pushed Labour to the wire in their heartland.

"This is a major success for the SNP, and I look forward to working with all councillors across the country to see Scotland take another step forward."

Scottish results number of seats per party, change from 2007 in brackets

Aberdeen: NOC no change
Con 3 (+1), Lab 17 (+9), Lib Dem 5 (-6), SNP 15 (0), other/ind 3 (-4)

Aberdeenshire: NOC no change
Con 14 (+1), Green 1 (+1), Labour 2 (+2), Lib Dem 12 (-9), SNP 27 (+8), other/ind 11 (-2)

Angus: SNP GAIN from NOC
Con 4 (-1), Lab 1 (-1), Lib Dem 1 (-1), SNP 15 (+3), other/ind 8 (0)

Argyll and Bute: NOC no change
Con 4 (+2),  Lib Dem 4 (-2), SNP 12 (+3), other/ind 13 (-3), vacant 3
(People in Dunoon will not vote for their three councillors until next Thursday.  The death of a candidate led to the election being postponed.)

Clackmannanshire: NOC no change
Con 1 (0), Labour 8 (+1), Lib Dem 0 (-1), SNP 8 (+1), other/ind 1 (-1)

Comhairle nan Eilean: independent hold
Lab 3 (+1), SNP 7 (+3), other/ind 21 (-4)

Dumfries and Galloway: NOC no change
Cons 14 (-3), Lab 15 (0), Lib Dem 1 (-2), SNP 10 (0), other/ind 7 (+5)

Dundee: SNP gain from NOC
Lab 10 (+2), Con 1 (-2), Lib Dem 1 (-1), SNP 16 (+2), ind/other 1 (-1)

East Ayrshire: NOC no change

Con 2 (-1), Lab 14 (-1), SNP 15 (+1), ind/other 1 (+1)

East Dunbartonshire: NOC no change
Con 2 (-2), Labour 8 (+2), Lib Dem 3 (0), SNP 8 (0), other/ind 3 (0)

East Lothian: NOC no change
Cons 3 (+1), Lab 10 (+3), Lib Dem 0 (-4), SNP 9 (0), other/ind 1 (0)

East Renfrewshire: NOC no change
Con 6 (-1), Lab 8 (+2), Lib Dem 0 (-1), SNP 4 (+1), other/ind 2 (-1)
Independent/Other 2 (2, -1)

Edinburgh: NOC no change
Con 11 (0), Green 6 (+3), Lab 20 (+5), Lib Dem 3 (-13), SNP 18 (+5)

Falkirk: NOC no change
Con 2 (0), Lab 14 (0), SNP 13 (0), other/ind 3 (0)

Fife: NOC no change
Con 3 (-1), Lab 35 (+11), Lib Dem 10 (-11), UKIP 0 (-1), SNP 26 (+4), other/ind 4 (-2)

Glasgow: Lab hold
Con 1 (0), Green 5 (0), Labour 44 (+5), Lib Dem 1 (-5), SNP 27 (+7), other/ind 1 (-7)

Highland: NOC no change
Labour 8 (+2), Lib Dem 15 (-6), SNP 22 (+4), other/ind 35 (0)

Inverclyde:  NOC no change
Con 1 (0), Lab 10 (+2), Lib Dem 2 (-1), Liberal 0 (-1),  SNP 6 (+1), other/ind 1 (-1)

Midlothian: Lab lose to NOC
Green 1 (+1), Lab 8 (-2), Lib Dem 0 (-2), SNP 8 (+2), other/ind 1 (+1)

Moray: NOC no change
Con 3 (+1), Lab 3 (+1), SNP 10 (0), other/ind 10 (-2)

North Ayrshire: NOC no change
Cons 1 (-1), Lab 11 (-1), Lib Dem 0 (-2), SNP 12 (+4), other/ind 6 (0)

North Lanarkshire: Lab hold
Lab 41 (?), Lib Dem 0 (-1), SNP 26 (+5),

Orkney:  NOC no change
ind/other 21 (0)

Perth & Kinross:  NOC no change
Con 10 (-1), Lab 4 (+1), Lib Dem 5 (-2), SNP 18 (0), other/ind 4 (+2)

Renfewshire:  Lab gain from NOC
Con 1 (0), Lab 22 (+3), Lib Dem 1 (-2), SNP 15 (-2), other/ind 1 (+1)

Scottish Borders:  NOC no change
Con 10 (-2), Lib Dem 6 (-4), SNP 9 (+3), other/ind 9 (+3)

Shetland:  NOC no change
ind/other 22 (0)

South Ayrshire:  NOC no change
Con 10 (-2), Lab 9 (+3), SNP 9 (-1), ind/other 2 (+2)

South Lanarkshire: NOC no change
Con 3 (-4), Lab 33 (+1), Lib Dem 1 (-1), SNP 28 (+4), other/ind 2 (+2)

Stirling:  NOC no change
Con 4 (0), Green 1 (+1), Lab 8 (0), Lib Dem 0 (-3), SNP 9 (+2)

West Dunbartonshire: Lab gain from NOC
Labour 12 (+4), SNP 6 (-3), Scottish Socialist Party 1 (+1), other/ind 3 (-1)

West Lothian: NOC no change
Con 1 (0), Lab 16 (+2), SNP 15 (+2), other/ind 1 (-3)


# crann tara 2012-05-04 18:29
The Lib Dems are to be congratulated for being the most environmently aware party.After today they can not only get all their M.S.P,s in one taxi they can get all their Scottish councillors in one coach.
# Welsh Sion 2012-05-04 18:46
Quoting crann tara:

"The Lib Dems are to be congratulated for being the most environmently aware party."

Indeed, they can now be put out to grass ;-)

Congratulations to all right-thinking Scots on a distinctly positive day, no matter how they spin it on the MSM, for your nation. You are set fair for 2014 - full speed ahead.

Rather disappointing for us in the sister party to the SNP in Wales, but I'm sure given time, and by taking lessons from our elder sibling, we'll be joining you too ere long.

Off topic - but considering all the hoohah about your Independence Referendum question having to be clear (where "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent nation? YES/NO is the epitome on an unclear [sic.] question), I thought you might like to pick up this question that was asked yesterday in some English cities in their referendums regarding electing mayors:

"How would you like ______ council to be run? "By a Leader who is an elected councillor chosen by the other elected councillors. This is how the council is run now or by a Mayor who is elected by voters."

This would be a change from how the Council is run now."

Now, how clear is this question as a 'simple' YES/NO question? It isn't to me... but I guess, I'm a ignorant Taff who knows nothing.

Can my more enlightened Scots cousins help me, please?
# Barbazenzero 2012-05-04 19:37
Excellent point re the mayoral referendums. As the question is put, and operating the rules of symbolic logic that all computer programming languages use, a YES response would mean that you're happy with either option while NO means you want some other system altogether - perhaps no mayor at all.

If the UK Electoral Commission approved that statement and it's not merely BBC misreporting as usual then it is a very good reason why they should not be given any say over the questions to be put-
# Teri 2012-05-04 19:00
SNP now have more councillors here than LibDems have in total across the whole UK.
A lot of people must have told Wullie Rennie porkies on the thousands of doorsteps he stood on as he said they were getting good positive feedback!
# edinburgh quine 2012-05-04 19:27
Silly you Teri, he was talking to himself. Sad, but true
# chicmac 2012-05-04 23:25
I think there might be more penguins in Edinburgh Zoo than there are LibDem MSPs and Cooncillers in Scotland.

They'll do their next feeding time with wee puffed oot chests, keeping up wi they pandas and their Tory comparisons.
# tartanpigsy 2012-05-05 02:53
And.... propel it with hot air as that is the only natural resource they seem like taking any interest in these days.

Perhaps they can live out their "wee pretendy " Utopia where they don't do deals, and survive by selling this great, 'better shared' resource, or perhaps they'll be LibDems and bend over as usual.
# Robert Louis 2012-05-04 18:38
Forget Glasgow, they get who they voted for. They've made their bed.... and so on, as is their democratic right. Fact is that Labour in Glasgow are no longer the force they used to be - I do not doubt they will continue to self destruct, once back at George Square.

The other thing to bear in mind, is that this should ensure Lamont stays on as Labour pretendy Scottish 'leader';. As such she is a genuine asset to the SNP.

The good news is the SNP is the largest party by vote share across Scotland, AND by number of councillors returned.

Ten years ago, that would have been unthinkable. The juggernaut just keeps on going. Next stop 2014.
# pmcrek 2012-05-04 18:41
Bet it breaks down.
# Puskas 2012-05-05 07:11
Quoting pmcrek:
Bet it breaks down.

Money has been poured into Glasgow from our Scottish Government for the completion of the M74 and other link roads. many by-passing Celtic Park.
The city within a city the biggest project ever regards the athletes village that becomes housing for the citizens. New sporting venues like the Sir Chris Hoy veladrome, London Road directly across from Celtic Park.
No need for Chris to by-pass Scotland and head to Manchester his favourite City. Maybe he will eventually give a bit of time to coach our youth.

The new Southern General Hospital a massive project and other handouts which I noticed the Labour Party in Glasgow made their disciples believe it was a Labour project.

Yes and they forgot the M74 started way back 1965/6 and it took the SNP Government only months in power to make it a priority to complete the missing link 2011.
I personally thought holding our own in Glasgow would be a bonus. Indeed we gained seats
The areas in Scotland that rear its ugly head with sectarianism and tragically have many alcohol and drug problems were always going to be difficult.
Labour, normal for them a political party with no policies made much humbug from this backed by a compliant media..

Add in the Murdoch, Trump comedy acts and you get my drift..
Yes much more to come as we head towards the Independence vote. We will have to combat the bias against us an awful lot better.

Other than that we have gained more ground and all systems are GO.

As a Glaswegian (reside EK present day)it saddens me that the education system obviously for many years has failed the city and its progress.

Mr Alex Salmond Scotlands First Minister a wonderful politition and patriot will lead us to a new beginning 2014.

His intelligence and cockiness doesn't go down well with the uneducated.
# Scotlandfirst 2012-05-05 07:50
Agree. After all the years of Labour control the deprivation is staggering, yet they still carry voting like political lemmings. A stronghold of sectarianism and poor education was always going to be a formidable, if not impossible cultural mountain to climb. However with all that was against us we still managed to gain councillors in Glasow. As the saying goes, "slowly slowly catchee monkey". Let's learn, and put the lesson to good use for 2014
# Embradon 2012-05-04 20:53
I was thinking something similar last night watching the English results.

Today was probably just good enough for Labour to keep Lamont and Miliband.
# Teri 2012-05-05 13:07
I dont think you're being fair by blaming all of the people of Glasgow. Labour took almost 3/5 of the seats and the the other parties took just over 2/5 of the seats so you really cant say we got what we voted for.

One of the reasons Labour held most seats is because the turn out was once again very low; just over 32% Whilst Labour may claim that all the stay at homes are their voters, I very much doubt it. More needs to be done to get the good people out to vote or fill in and post their ballot papers. A lot more also needs to be done with our young ones through better political education at school as a high proportion dont bother voting.

The SNP did well by increasing the number of councillors by almost 25%. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.

Lastly, in many Glasgow SNP branches there is not a high membership, nor are there vast funds available to them as subs are low, especially in the poorer areas of which there are many in Glasgow. In some branches there's only a small group of activists all working their butts off. Whilst I know most of you will be active in your own areas, I think if some could come along and help in Glasgow, more could be done to get the vote out. Meanwhile, we must congratulate those who do, for giving such a good result for the party.
# Leswil 2012-05-04 18:42
It has been a roller coaster day, shame about Glasgow, but everyone new it was a very tall order. Nevertheless a great showing for the SNP to capture so many seats. Congratulations ALL THE SNP TEAM and well done.
One thing niggles me, 500,000 postal votes? in Glasgow, this seems to me to be an incredible percentage of the voters.
I feel something maybe is not right, anybody have any thoughts on this?
# Teri 2012-05-04 19:03
27 seats in Glasgow was a good achievement, considering the Labour mindset amongst a good deal of the population. My own ward, Maryhill/Kelvin got 2 SNP councillors elected for the first time. This was a terrific achievement.
# Exile 2012-05-04 20:12
My thoughts are that it should be pursued.
# Kevin-ProudScot 2012-05-04 18:42
Lets win Independence for Scotland in 2014.. I hope it happens
# From The Suburbs 2012-05-04 18:43
The Unionist press achieved their aim with ten days of negative headlines which curtailed SNP gains and allowed Labour to become largest party in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

Might you it seems that we couldn't manage the two vote strategy very well.
# govanite 2012-05-04 18:48
Easy to get dejected by the media coverage. But just look at the numbers. Here are some positives:

This is our best council election ever.
Lamont keeps her job.
Winning Glasgow would have been a poisoned chalice and it was always a tall order, Salmond never built it up as anything else. I'd have liked noc but I know the tories held their noses and voted labour. Tories always vote, sometimes tactically.
Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister now, either the Tories get rid of Cameron or he attends to his hinterland.
# Robert Louis 2012-05-04 18:53
I agree regarding Glasgow, it would indeed have been a poisoned chalice. Like I say, they will continue to self destruct - just like they were doing prior to the election.
# Teri 2012-05-04 19:06
In Glasgow, it will be interesting to see if that failed MSP Frank McAveety is planning a coup to take over once again as council leader. Mathieson will need to watch his back as McAveety has aspirations. Personally I cant get my head round the fact that Glasgow voter elected failed has beens like McAveety and the resurrected Liz Cameron, ex Lord Provost and master of junkets around the world at great expense.
# Scotlandfirst 2012-05-05 08:01
Only because we made the mistake of hyping up our inroad into Glasgow. If it was not for our over enthusiasm, then things would feel much rosier. Sometimes we make the mistake of becoming too enthusiastic, so if we fall short its perceived as a failure, which it is not. Let’s move forward now to 2014 having learnt some lessons. The juggernaut is still on the road and moving.
# parsonrussell 2012-05-04 18:49
I'm gutted!!

I stay in Cumbernauld and Labour control in North Lanarkshire has been a disaster for us in the past, I was hoping that the SNP would get control of North Lanarkshire, but no matter the support in Cumbernauld we cant compete with the core LAbour vote in Coatbridge,Wish aw, Motherwell. So no matter we are the biggest town in the constituency we will continue to be neglected in favour of the Labour centric areas.
# Soixante-neuf 2012-05-05 01:02
I used to live in Wishaw. Labour council corruption and cronyism was a byword. People would write letters to the free papers saying things like "when will these councillors learn that we won't put up with [insert latest shock horror]?"

I would mutter darkly "when you stop voting for them, ma'am," and chuck the thing in the bin.
# alexb 2012-05-05 08:29
Quoting parsonrussell:
I'm gutted!!

I stay in Cumbernauld and Labour control in North Lanarkshire has been a disaster for us in the past, I was hoping that the SNP would get control of North Lanarkshire, but no matter the support in Cumbernauld we cant compete with the core LAbour vote in Coatbridge,Wish aw, Motherwell. So no matter we are the biggest town in the constituency we will continue to be neglected in favour of the Labour centric areas.

Same here, parsonrussell. Just have to try harder the next tome.
# border reiver 2012-05-04 18:52
This is still a great result for the SNP despite the onslaught by the unionists and the Media frenzy over the last week. Agree with Robert Louis that it will keep one of our best assets Lamont in place for the big one but where does this leave the Lib Dems they have nowhere to go as a party and I am sure that they will have to make big changes to their relationship with the westminster mob i.e. Clegg and Alexander. maybe they will decide to separate and that will certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons
# Legerwood 2012-05-04 20:59
border reiver 2012-05-04 19:52
This is still a great result for the SNP despite the onslaught by the unionists and the Media frenzy over the last week. Agree with Robert Louis that it will keep one of our best assets Lamont in place for the big one...

I think people should be careful about describing the retention of Ms Lamont in her position as Labour leader as an asset.

The fact that Labour has managed to retain Glasgow and has done not too badly overall in Scotland will bolster her leadership and her confidence. This after all was her first election test as Labour leader and the results have not been too bad for them.

So she may gain in confidence and hence in performance from this.

So have a care. You may be in danger of underestimating what these results will do for her leadership and the support she gets in that position.
# chicmac 2012-05-04 23:26
Disagree. The retention of Lamont is the silver lining.
# Legerwood 2012-05-04 23:58
Time will tell which of us is correct.
# Soixante-neuf 2012-05-05 01:04
The SNP went very soft on dear Wendy, because she was seen as a great asset to the party. Do you seriously think Lamentable is less good for us than Bendy Wendy?
# Legerwood 2012-05-05 09:32

I am saying people should be cautious about overestimating how 'good' she will be for the SNP.

See the article in today's Herald by Brian Currie for an example of how political commentators are interpreting this result in terms of its beneficuial effect on her leadership and the fillip it will be for her.

In the article there is this interesting quote:

""She [Ms Lamont] has certainly made an impression in the political theatre that is First Minister's Questions, giving at least as good as she gets on most occasions against Mr Salmond's formidable presence - and those short television sound-bites often translate into votes.""

Unlike Wendy or Iain Gray, Mr Lamont now has an election 'vicory' under her belt. Do not underestimate what that will do to her standing or to how she is perceived by the electorate.
# RTP 2012-05-04 18:55
Now that Lab have become the largest party in Aberdeen I wait to see if they are going to cancel the Union Garden project as stated by Lewis MacDonald a few weeks ago.
BBC will be in there glory tonight seeing that the SNP failed to take Glasgow.
# farrochie 2012-05-04 18:55
Johann Lamont looked very uncomfortable when she was interviewed on the spot by Michael Crick (I think). She wouldn't face him or look him in the eye, looked away from the camera and pulled out some stock sound bites. Glasgow remains a challenge, but Labour are slowly losing it.
# Robert Louis 2012-05-04 19:05
Here's an interesting thing, the SNP now have nearly as many councillors in Scotland as the Libdems have in the entire uk.

Libdem 431 (entire UK)

SNP 424 (just in Scotland).

Poor Willie Rennie. When oh when will the Scottish Liberal democrats wise up to what Clegg and his bullingdon boy chums are doing to their party??

Oh, and just for interest the blatant political bias by our Westminster propaganda puppets in BBC Scotland just goes on and on.

Take a look at this page;

The lead story picture changes via a sequence of about eight. The first is of Labour celebrating, followed by Nicola Sturgeon looking dismayed, and the rest are all pretty bland, except the picture of Labour celebrating.

Oh aye, the BBC, fair and balanced???? utter utter.. well, you know what.
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-04 19:16
I wish that was true RL but only some of the council seats in England were being contested today.
# govanite 2012-05-04 19:22
good point, so Ed's celebrations are very premature
# xyz 2012-05-04 19:49
I wonder what the result would have been had the BBC not been hammering home their anti SNP propaganda all day every day ..
# Dunnichen685 2012-05-04 19:55
You are absolutely correct Robert Louis.

As the day has worn on I have grown angrier the more I have seen of the BBC's coverage. That picture on the BBC website was the final straw. How anyone can claim that the BBC is unbiased beggars belief. I should be happy about the SNP victory (it IS a victory, the SNP have the most councillors nationwide) but instead I am livid about the media coverage. I'd better steer clear of any unionist papers tomorrow or my blood pressure will go through the roof !!!
Something needs to be done. Any suggestions anyone ?
# Northerndiver 2012-05-04 19:19
I seen Danny 'the Rodent' Alexander on the TV. He was saying that while out canvassing in Inverness he talked to a man who told him that he had voted SNP all his life, but because of the independence issue he was no longer going to..........Mmm sounds like a wee fib to me. I think that if somebody had voted for the SNP all their life they would be well aware of the SNP's position on independence.
# Barontorc 2012-05-04 19:37
Yes and Brain Taylor revealed he had spoken on the QT with a senior SNP figure who was shattered by the Glasgow result and said the SNP had been out-gunned and out-thought!

No names, no pack drill, you understand!

Then Raymond Buchanan also revealed he had been told on the QT again by another SNP activist that he was gutted by the Glasgow result. Again, no names, no pack drill!

Of course, both of these BBC chaps would be telling the absolute truth, wouldn't they?

I can't help thinking that there's a very big tongue in an SNP cheek tonight. The full show by Labour for this fight for Glasgow will not be on for the 2014 referendum, but the full majesty of their partial press and media machine was put into top gear for all to see.

There will, I am sure be an apt Chinese strategy proverb kicking around somewhere, that says show me what you're best punch is and I'll take it on the chin - this time!
# govanite 2012-05-04 19:20
And with the death of the libdems and rise of the greens, the union parties die.
People are breaking the habit of voting labour. The habit will die given time.
As Salmond says, labour have stood still in Glasgow.
# roguesquadron 2012-05-04 19:21
Very good results nationally. I'm gutted locally (east renfrewshire ward) as a very very good SNP councillor lost his seat while 2 labour numpties of whom I saw neither hide nor hair of over the past 5 years nor the last few weeks get elected! Still applies that stick a labour rosette on a donkey and they'll get elected. Beggars belief. Really is.
# Barontorc 2012-05-04 19:45
What's the betting that there will be at least twice as many voting in the referendum?

The 2/3 who didn't vote yesterday will be asked a question in 2014 that they must answer, be it never to see their X on the ballot paper, but they cannot ignore the question and it will be the most important decision any of them will ever be empowered to decide on.

Yip, there's a big tongue in a big SNP cheek tonight! Good-oh!
# km 2012-05-04 19:25
Would be interesting to look back at the record books, I can't think of any case of local council elections where the incumbent government actually increased its share by so much. Well done to all in the SNP.
# ituna semea 2012-05-04 19:36
For all the bluster the SNP have under achieved, might be something to do with their leader's hubris.
# curley bill 2012-05-04 19:44
Aye it's fair to say the SNP are going backwards by winning more councillors and more share of the vote.
As for 'their leader's hubris', I'll have you know it's glandular.
# tartanfever 2012-05-04 20:02
Ah hubris, that ol' chestnut.

I understand that to exhibit hubris one must first have a well developed personality and character. This would explain much about the failings of the 3 stooges, Curly Davidson, Larry Lamont and Mo Rennie.
# ituna semea 2012-05-04 19:41
"SNP and Labour make gains at Coalition's expense" This headline says it all.
# govanite 2012-05-04 19:56
Ha Ha.
Let me assure you, the nationalists are rejoicing tonight.
Labour threw the kitchen sink at Glasgow and only managed to stand still.

The day will dawn soon enough.
# X_Sticks 2012-05-04 22:11
"Labour threw the kitchen sink"

And the television!
# proudscot 2012-05-04 22:29
Quoting X_Sticks:
"Labour threw the kitchen sink"

And the television!

And the Murdoch smears by the entire MSM.
# 1876 2012-05-04 19:52
Hunter should not have been SNP leader in GC......surely a younger and more dynamic leader should have been selected.She didn't know what policies the SNP were putting forward and announced before the election she was to stand down?......and before I get shot down again,I know she was Sturgeon's agent,but she was definately a week point in Glasgow.A 70 year old woman or man shouldn't be standing,let alone be the Leader!....discuss.
# Aplinal 2012-05-04 20:10
OK, I'll bite.

Today's elected officials need to be media savvy and able to hold their own against an aggressive MSM. (If you're Labour, it doesn't apply as no one will challenge you anyway, especially your 'pals' in the BBC.

I know that "local" elections should not be as difficult, but ANY apparent or perceived 'weakness' in any SNP official will be pounced on and inflated to absurd "importance".

So, regrettably this means that future leaders of the SNP councilors need to be able to hold their own. AFAIK Hunter was an able and hard working leader of the SNP in a minority party. She was probably not equipped to take the additional pressure, and why should she. Shame on the MSM, really.

So there are still some lessons to learn in an otherwise superb set of results. One major one, is how to handle the aggressively biased media in the next two years?

I think the SNP has to become far more assertive in that regard, only by making a fuss will the attention of Scots towards the bias of the MSM/BBC be seen for what it is.

Saor Alba
# Teri 2012-05-05 13:14
I believe alison Hunter stepped in pro tem last May when James Dornan, the group leader, was elected to Holyrood as an MSP. I think we will probably find a new leader emerging once the larger group settle back in to council work. I may be wrong, but I think she may be happy to hand over the reins. She held the group together and did a good job over the year so should be thanked for that.
# DonaldMhor 2012-05-04 20:18
Quoting 1876:
Hunter should not have been SNP leader in GC......surely a younger and more dynamic leader should have been selected.She didn't know what policies the SNP were putting forward and announced before the election she was to stand down?......and before I get shot down again,I know she was Sturgeon's agent,but she was definately a week point in Glasgow.A 70 year old woman or man shouldn't be standing,let alone be the Leader!....discuss.

I could not agree more. Allison Hunter is a nice lady but you cannot expect someone of that age to stand firm in the face of the unrelenting hostility and aggression we saw from Labour in Glasgow. She was overwhelmed by the blizzard of lies and misquotes they slung around about her. It takes a very strong character to stand firm in the face of such hostility. Allison looked worn out and confused most of the time and was in my opinion a factor in the SNP not advancing further. The SNP need to take stock of this and be a wee bit ruthless in choosing candidates.

The other big question marks for me is the electronic counting, the overnight delay and the postal voting. Electronics can be tampered with, and the overnight delay is ideal tampering time. Postal voting of 500,000? Never forget Labour have form on election fraud!
# Bobelix 2012-05-04 19:57
The figures given above - presumably based on the BBC's reports - are wrong! This is just the sort of thing you associate with a 3rd World country: not content with playing up the SNPs vastly increased share of the Glasgow vote as some kind of major SNP setback, the BBC have fiddled the election figures!
BBC Report results as follows
SNP 424 councillors +57,
Lab 394 councillors +58
So Labour increased their vote by 1 councillor more than the SNP? Did they Hell!
The REAL figures (check 'em!) are:
SNP 424 councillors +61 (363 in 2007)
Lab 394 councillors +46 (348 in 2007)
Even on a good Labour day, the BBC still have to massage the figures! (Many thanks to Rod MacFarlane for pointing this out)
# xyz 2012-05-04 20:17
What is going on there? They can get away with this? .. Maybe they'll quietly change the numbers in the coming days, when the focus is off the local elections.

Where is the source for these numbers? . aye, not the #### BBC
# Aplinal 2012-05-04 20:19
Maybe the Labour figures are the net sum after all the "defections". Not sure how they could mix up the SNP figures though, unless they are also a summation of 'gains' between the two elections?

Good spot indeed.
# Bobelix 2012-05-04 20:30
The BBC have consistently referred to 2007 when calculating gains and losses, so it'd be very disingenuous of them to suddenly claim they were referring to defections. Anyway, the point of the comparison was to show movement in the vote - the defectors' original voters were voting for Labour in 2007!
# Aplinal 2012-05-04 20:38
I agree, I was just guessing. But then anything from the BBC to show Labour = GOOD! and SNP = BAAAAD! will be tried.
# Bobelix 2012-05-04 21:03
STV report it correctly:
# A_Scottish_Voice 2012-05-04 21:38
Newsnight Scotland broadcasting the incorrect figures to big up Labour.
# Barbazenzero 2012-05-04 20:58
Well spotted. Those are indeed the BBC figures from their Election 2007 pages -, supposedly Last Updated: Tuesday, 8 May, 2007, 11:25 GMT 12:25 UK and showing Councillor counts of:
  • Lab 348
  • SNP 363
  • L-D 166
  • Con 143
  • Grn 8
  • SSP 1
  • SOL 1
  • Others 193

Someone senior in the SNP should be putting them right on this.
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-04 21:02
RevStu covered this earlier and tweeted about the dodgy figures about 7pm.
# Bobelix 2012-05-04 21:08
So 16.8% increase in seats for the SNP and just under 11.7% for Labour. Pretty clear who the winners are here, no?
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-04 21:12
unless you're the agenda pushing BBC....
# Triangular Ears 2012-05-04 21:12
Well spotted. Wikipedia agrees with your figures. It looks like they are comparing the results with immediately before the election, however if you look at the whole UK figures they are comparing to the last election.

Wikipedia agrees with the BBC for the UK as a whole, but agrees with you for Scotland.

This is some of the clearest evidence yet of the Pravda credentials of the BBC when it comes to Scotland.

# Peter A Bell 2012-05-05 10:57
Last night Wikipedia was showing the same distorted seat change figures as the BBC. Wikipedia amended their entry to show the correct figures. As I write, the BBC is still peddling its manipulated figures.

Wikipedia is more reliable than the BBC.
# naemairleesplease 2012-05-05 00:40
Scotsman using the same results as BBC

And the daily record

And the daily express

And the Guardian
# Peter A Bell 2012-05-05 11:07
The Sun is reporting accurate figures. As far as I am aware it is alone in doing so.
# Exile 2012-05-05 09:08
I expect they'll have used the position going into the election as their baseline, meaning defections from Labour over the past 5 years give a false picture of the change in councillor numbers. They will, of course, claim this is perfectly legitimate.
# Teri 2012-05-05 13:17
The same for the Glasgow SNP figures. BBC show 27 councillors being an increase of 7 from last election. Not so, it should be 27 with an increase of 5 as the sNP had 22 councillors.

Similarly, Labour had 45 councillors elected in 2007, 44 in 2012, not an increase of 5 but a drop of 1. The good old Beeb likes to tell its own good news story.
# tartanfever 2012-05-04 19:57
I wonder if we'll hear more about the breakdown of voting preferences - how many first votes were cast for each party and what would have resulted in a FPTP system ?

Good to see that whilst Labour gained a little in Scotland, the SNP matched them and in terms of UK wide voting patterns, Labour in Scotland completely under-performed to their party south of the border despite the best efforts of a 100% partisan press here.
# Aplinal 2012-05-04 20:21
Regards first preferences. I think we will get these shortly, you can see the 2007 (and previous) first preferences on the Wiki pages. For example
# tartanfever 2012-05-04 20:44
Thanks Ap,much appreciated.
# mealer 2012-05-04 20:10
Voting Labour will not be an option in the referendum.
# truth 2012-05-04 20:50
Such a short statement, but one of immense importance.
# mealer 2012-05-04 20:17
What was the share of first preference votes?
# scottish_skier 2012-05-04 20:20
ICM independence poll 15-01-2012

Would you approve or disapprove of Scotland becoming an independent country?
Base: All respondents

YES = 45%
No = 34%
DN = 22%

Min yes = 57%
Likely yes = >68%

Glasgow will carry the YES vote in the referendum. That's the irony...

Glasgow returns a yes on independence in polls consistently on average. Never gives a no majority...
# xyz 2012-05-04 20:29
That's ironic, but with questions over postal votes and electronic systems that break down half way through ... how can we trust the results
# Aplinal 2012-05-04 20:33
Thanks S-S I always like to read your analysis. I do not think that these results are too much of a guide to the Independence vote, in as much as there will be a different set of priorities for people in 2014.

Do you think that the first preference votes will be any kind of guide to the independence vote?
# scottish_skier 2012-05-04 21:27
Today the SNP got 35% of councillors; 42% if you exclude the independents which typically do well at local level - really the SNP support is not a lot different to May 11, albeit were are dealing with local elections, not national.

I vote SNP, yet I'm not sure I would be happy with e.g. 55% SNP...too one party state! Referendum is secured and it does not belong to any party - there are independence supporters among all the parties/their voters.

Independence is the goal and today was another good result. The most important thing is Scotland is not following the UK; it is doing its own thing. Labour did well today but that will not alter the fact that 70% of Scots want devo max min nor 40% odd are ready to vote for independence tomorrow with 20% giving it serious thought.

Glasgow is the birthplace of Labour just as the NE might be regarded as the birthplace of the SNP. Labour held Glasgow but that does not mean Glasgow is unionist. I believe Glasgow will help carry a yes in the referendum based on polls. East Lothian and the Borders are considerably more marginal by comparison.

Scotland has diversity in its voting patterns - it really is centrist overall (by that I mean the real centre which is well to the left of N. Labour and where the SNP are) which is best – extremes always end in tears. Scotland, overall, remains stubbornly centre/modest left/modest liberal and has so always historically.

Labour may be happy with today, but it changes nothing in terms of the referendum. In fact, as noted, today’s results just show how Scotland continues to tread its own path. Today was just a battle of the two big parties (at local level) who will likely face each other in the first GE in an independent Scotland. Scottish Labour will probably be (return to) the left, a reduced SNP the centre, and the remnant Tories/more right-ish SNPers will form a new centre right. Of course keep in mind that the Scots right are just moderately so (traditionally modest right of centre liberals and strongly nationalistic ironically) – that’s why they stopped voting Tory under Thatcher; while they had conservative/hard work/stand on your own two feet etc values, they care for their society not just personal gain….

That’s what gives me hope – look back at Scotland over the past century of voting and you can see how it always tries to keep a balance. When the Tories went neo-liberal, their voters moved to the Libs and the SNP, i.e. back towards the centre overall. When New Labour went right, they again lost to the Libs and the SNP. When the libs went orange book/tory coalition, their voters went to the SNP and so on…. Very healthy – a good equilibrium - if only we could be running things ourselves!
# Aplinal 2012-05-04 21:32
Thanks. Nice summary.
# Embradon 2012-05-04 21:32
Was that really the question that ICM asked?
How can you sensibly answer yes or no to a question that has a built in alternative?
YES would mean that you approved OR disapproved and NO would mean that you had no view.
# ituna semea 2012-05-05 05:49
"Would you approve or disapprove of Scotland becoming an independent country?"
So a what does a YES or NO answer indicate, the don't knows have given the only logical response. Your psephological career is dead in the water Prof Curtice can rest easy.
# Exile 2012-05-05 09:14
That's not the proposed question, as you well know. Quit the trolling. It's no longer fashionable.
# Willow 2012-05-04 20:28

BBC Nick Robnson's blog is open, if anyone is registered you could perhaps put up the correct figures there?
# pa_broon74 2012-05-04 20:41
I wouldn't mind a squiz at the postal vote records.

Be interesting to see what they're like.

With all thats gone on in Glasgow, I find it hard to believe they stood still there.
# Leswil 2012-05-05 07:56
500,000 postal votes in Glasgow?
Seems really high to me, opinions?
# tartanfever 2012-05-05 08:00
Don't be daft. Glasgow has a population of @ 600k - how can they have 500k postal votes ?

People really being quite ignorant here.
# Teri 2012-05-05 13:20
Considering turnout in Glasgow was 32% there cant possible be that number of poastal voters, unless the weans got a vote as well plus their cousins overseas.
# border reiver 2012-05-04 20:53
See that Cameron has waited till today to report that the Government has been granted core participant status in the Levenson Enquiry. This is a terrible thing for democracy and the independence of the enquiry as it will give the government time to cover up and will intimidate witnesses if they think they will recieve hostile interogation. It will be interesting to see if the Rebecca Brookes e-mails are included in her testimony next Friday, allegegly they have been sending around twelve per day each to one another.
# mealer 2012-05-04 21:08
Plenty info on share of the vote in England,but cant find it for Scotland yet.Maybe STV system takes longer to work out.It seems to be high 40s SNP in Angus.
# Piemonteis 2012-05-04 21:09
Watching the English results come in last night, the BBC were showing the percentage share of the vote every hour or so. I've yet to see the percentage share for Scotland from the day's results, with the BBC preferring to show this +58/+57 seat change.

If it wasn't for the last few months of BBC coverage, I'd be thinking I was paranoid, but is this statistic being suppressed in the media to avoid showing us who really did better today, as it would take away from the "Labour victory"? Does anyone have the statistics?

On a tangent, well done to the Greens for today's gains. Although it's well possible they may have taken seats off the SNP, I'm of the opinion that, to maximize our chances of winning this referendum, we need as many independence-friendly voices in the public sphere as possible.
# From The Suburbs 2012-05-04 21:13
Obviously too much to expect BBC "National" news as broadcaster of record to say that SNP won the most seats in Scotland.

PS Greens only took seats from Lib Dems.
# Piemonteis 2012-05-04 21:32
Not too sure about that. In Bonnyrigg, the Greens took a seat in a ward not being contested by the Lib Dems. It would otherwise have gone SNP, Labour or back to the Independent.
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-04 21:23
That priceless comedy turn Cochers gets top billing on Google News Scotland

Tide starts to turn against separation - ‎1 hour ago‎ By Alan Cochrane, Scottish Editor It may not have been halted but at least the council election results have shown that Labour has at last found the handbrake to the SNP's bandwagon, which the Nats had arrogantly predicted was rolling them inexorably ...

Time the Telegraph employed Professor Pongoo to write his column,
" nats meep meep, disaster meep, separatists meep"
# hadrianswall 2012-05-04 21:35
The results for Glasgow are on the council website. They need a full analysis but two things are apparent; Labour won first preference comfortably. But postal votes were about 25%. That seems high? Anybody have any insights?
# oldnat 2012-05-04 21:58
Glasgow 1st Preference vote share

45.7%, Lab
32.8%, SNP
_6.1%, Con
_5.8%, Green
_3.1%, LD
_1.8%, Ind
_1.8%, Socialist (4 varieties0
_1.8%, Glasgow First
_0.5%, Unionist (2 varieties)
_0.3%, Christian
_0.3%, UKIP
_0.1%, Pirate
# oldnat 2012-05-04 21:59
North Ayrshire 1st Preference vote share

35.6%, SNP
26.4%, Lab
19.0%, Ind
_9.3%, Con
_6.6%, LD
_2.1%, Socialists (3 varieties)
_0.5%, UKIP
_0.4%, Pensioner
# Piemonteis 2012-05-05 00:35
Thanks for the data Old Nat. After last year's results I'm finding it hard to take heart from the Glasgow results today.

I thought I'd post my calculations of the West Lothian Council results, just in case anybody's interested:

West Lothian 1st preference (9 wards)

40.4%, 15c SNP
38.1%, 16c Labour
_8.8%, 1c Conservative
_6.7%, Action to Save St. John's Hos. (8/9)
_5.3%, 1c Independent (2/9)
_0.4%, Liberal Democrats (2/9)
_0.2%, National Front (2/9)
_0.1%, UKIP (1/9)

A few items of note:

SNP and Labour were constantly hovering around the 40% mark. The two exceptions were in Linlithgow, where the longstanding Tory councillor took 33% of first preferences (despite the Tories only having around 10% support at recent Holyrood elections); and the independent Stuart Borrowman (John Swinney's former chief of staff), who took over 55% in Armadale.

The Lib Dems are spent in West Lothian. In the two seats they contested, they only drew 2.15% and 1.17% (less than the National Front) of 1st preferences. It will be interesting to see if they even contest national elections in future.

The other point to factor in is the participation in nearly all seats of the ASSJH, but I'm unsure whether they would have taken votes from Labour or the SNP.

Also pleasing to note that turnout in Linlithgow was 53.3%.
# Embradon 2012-05-04 21:35
Would the result in Aberdeen city have anything to do with a local Labour MSP suggesting that they would countermand the result of the recent referendum on Union Terrace?

That would be an interesting piece of politics and a dangerous precedent.
# SolTiger 2012-05-04 22:14
The Aberdeen Greens are the only party who have opposed the Ian Wood project since it barged its way in dumping aside a far cheaper, more appropriate and less damaging project which the council had already given the go ahead to.

Labour don't give a damn about Union Terrace Gardens, they only brought this issue up to score points against the SNP.
# HighlandBark 2012-05-04 23:25
# Marga B 2012-05-04 23:46
Tempted to theorise from abroad:

It seems Labour research key issues that will engage/enrage their electorate (no Scottish steel in new bridge, bus services cut, controversial garden scheme, Salmond etc.) then lets the media plus natural prejudice, at least some of it class based, do the rest.

Result: Labour silence. No need to campaign. No need for policies. No need even for the truth. SNP thinks they've given up. They haven't.

SNP doesn't seem to get it, yet at least the Aberdeen issue and the steel were flashing red lights. Like I suspect higher charges for elderly care was in Glenrothes (speaking as a Fifer).

Anyway, well done for weathering the storm, onward and upward.
# Leswil 2012-05-05 08:16
I am sure both Labour and SNP will analyse all the results, break down the areas to see what policy or action helped or hindered them. Both sides will be far more tuned in the ways of their respective policies when the big battle comes.
My Opinion though is that while the SNP will go forward well. We have to remember they are taking on ALL the Unionist machine and all the crap that comes with it and labour are their main weapon here.
Along with the mud throwing press.

I hope the SUN gets behind us as that would at least be something.Some helpful media coverage at the right time would be a gift we could use. I think we also need NEWSNETSCOTLAND to grow into a bigger organisation who will be able to project our ambitions even more.

It is going to be tough, so we all need to be up for it.I am proud of all the people involved in our success yesterday and thank them all for their efforts.

I think Alex Salmond has been brilliant all the way, despite ALL the CRAP which has been thrown at him.He is a champion in my estimation, others would have wilted.
# Ken Mac 2012-05-04 22:15
One for this sites list of examples of BBC bias. On Newsnight tonight they are showing the dodgy figures already described above, their reporter stated the SNP gained 7 seats in Glasgow (correct) and then said that Labour gained 5. So they are not comparing the results with 2007, they are counting the seats where just recently their own councillors left the party as new gains! Incredible stuff. They actually lost 1 seat. Then they roll out Jeremy Vine who makes it look like Labour have actually increased their share of the vote more than the SNP by the clever device of quoting only 'key seats'. Oh, he also told us Labour RE-gained Glasgow. Just for good measure we get Curtice comparing the SNPs result with their 2011 Scottish General Election result to make it look like they aren't doing well. No doubt when we win the independence election he'll contrive to make it look like a bad night for the SNP.
# aiberdeen sheep 2012-05-04 22:16
I am sick and tired of subsidising Glasgow and having my business rates used to prop up that city.

I hope that the rest of Scotland will now get a fair settlement and that the SNP will stop pandering to the ungrateful subsidy junkies that populate that city.

I am furious and these people and Labour deserve each other.

They can wallow in poverty for ever as far as I am concerned.
# oldnat 2012-05-04 22:22
Seems odd that you want the 54% of Glaswegians who didn't vote Labour to suffer along with the 46% who did.

All of them are our citizens, and no independence supporter should want to see any of our people suffer, just because they vote the "wrong way".
# Wee-Scamp 2012-05-04 22:47
Surely that's 46% of the 32% turnout so just under 15%....
# gfaetheblock 2012-05-04 22:27
So if Scotland becomes independent, you will condemn Glasgow to 'wallow in poverty for ever'?

I hope the SNP politicians care more about Scotland than you do.
# doctor_zaius 2012-05-04 22:50
Sadly it has wallowed in poverty for a long time. Clearly the incumbent council administration has done a magnificent job making life better for... actually, I can't finish that sentence with a straight face.

Who knows. Mathieson et al may actually act in Glasgow's best interests and help to improve the average Glaswegian's lot.
# northernshedboy 2012-05-04 23:13
Yes I know where you are coming from, and have also read the replies to your post.

But, it is a frustration almost as bad as the Westminster frustration.

Glasgow is wall to wall TV. Every comment on TV must include what Glasgow wants. All other areas must be patient while Glasgow is dealt with.

Glasgow is in line for a very large building project on its shopping centre, there are special funds particularly for Glasgow, employment help is directed towards Glasgow.

Meanwhile in the Highlands we are getting a new road, a dualed road, but starting at Perth end over 100 miles away from here. Our average travel speeds to Perth and beyond are about 45mph because of lorries with limiters set at 15mph below main speed limit.

Our busses in built up areas are every hour compared to Glasgow's few minutes. Glasgow is worried about lossing a bus service when there are ample alternatives. If I use the bus to school in the next town along the A96 in the morning I would have to arrive more than 1 hour before the school starts or be right on the morning bell time. With trains it is 3 hours early and waiting on the janitors to arrive

We have three trains per day to Aberdeen, Glasgow or Edinburgh whereas Glasgow has continual clockwork underground and various overground trains going to many stations.

To go out of the country on business or holiday, Glasgow has an international airport on its doorstep. The highlands have an extra days travel to reach Gasgow including extra travel costs and extra charges for parking cars, etc.

At times non Glaswegians in the north get fed up being force fed Glasgow news and concerns while being ignored for any information of our own area.

I don't wish harm on the residents of Glasgow in term of poverty or being neglected by local or central government anymore than you do, but the constant concern over an area where only a small proportion of the population live is a pain in the derriere at times.

For just the money being spent on the big Glasgow shop, we could get all of the asbestos out if our schools, put a computer in each classroom on our schools and build at least a few more overtaking lanes to speed up our transfer to civilisation.

Glasgow is not by any means neglected by government of any colour, but it feels closer to neglect the further from Glasgow you live.
# doctor_zaius 2012-05-04 23:23
Beautifully put, very eloquent. As a Moray resident travelling regularly to Dundee (work &family) the A96 is a colossal pain. I comfort myself that where I live/work is so beautiful!

Unrelatedly, come on Ye Well ;-)
# Marga B 2012-05-04 23:56
If I could comment on anything it would be to suggest to the SNP, take a clean sheet, make Dundee (say) your new model town. Test bed for radical social policies. Break new ground.

Then think what to do about Glasgow. Strangely, throwing resources at it is not the answer, and causes unrest for other areas of Scotland as you illustrate, Northern.
# Barontorc 2012-05-05 01:12
Dundee deserves to be a principal city in many ways and I agree 100% that there is enough vitality and fertile glory there as in any other place in Scotland. I'd hang my hat on Dundee!
# scotswhahae 2012-05-05 08:13
Agree entirely with Marga B & Barontorc, The SNP should now make DUNDEE their showcase city, this would be good for all cities to see, plus Glenrothes itself might even be persuaded to ditch their faithful allegiance to labour. And when Independence is ours, maybe Dundee could have an Airport that will allow flights worldwide...That in itself would make travelling for all of Angus much easier also...Plus the residents of the two controlled SNP councils, will benefit from having one of the best cities on their doorstep...
# cokynutjoe 2012-05-05 10:26
This is just parochial nonsense from the Sheep, Labour did rather well in Aberdeen!
# Teri 2012-05-05 13:23
I think you should go and rethink what you have just said. If you have a quibble with business rates take it up with the proper authorities. First though, check that you have all the exact facts and figures.
Leave the citizens of Glasgow out of it.
# govanite 2012-05-04 22:24
On labour's big night and starting from the same level, the SNP still finished ahead of them.


But the poor of Glasgow can rest easy tonight, labour will preserve them.
# tartanpigsy 2012-05-05 01:20
In what?
# Diabloandco 2012-05-05 07:38
# aiberdeen sheep 2012-05-04 22:33
All right, i am being a tad harsh.

I just cannot believe that these people continue to vote for a party that does next to nothing for them.

I can only assume that the poor and disposed are not voting in Glasgow and labour are winning on the basis of their public sector workers voting in huge numbers for them?.

Complete self interest and to hell with the underclass.
# gfaetheblock 2012-05-04 22:42
so you no longer what to leave the underclass in Glasgow to fester, but you blame it all on public sector workers?

I believe the public sector is the biggest employer in Scotland, what section of society to offend next?

Many good people (loads on this forum) disagree with my politics, but they are still good people.
# xyz 2012-05-04 22:44
Maybe they are persuaded to vote, and by postal too ,so that their names can be checked off the list .. Labour doings?
# gfaetheblock 2012-05-04 23:42
Your implication above is clear, but could another party have overhyped the chance of winning glasgow? SNP's doings?
# tartanpigsy 2012-05-05 00:18
must admit I like yer tenacity gfae, its the rest of it I don't get :-(

like an alternative vision for Scotland perhaps......
# cardrossian 2012-05-05 06:39
Its my understanding that most Labour voters vote on national (i.e Unionist) issues and are therefore voting against the Westminster coalition.

It has always been my opinion that party politics are detrimental to good local government, and these results bear out ny argument
# Marga B 2012-05-05 09:39
Totally agree, Cardrossian.
# cokynutjoe 2012-05-05 10:33
I would agree that the Labour support here is basically anti-Tory, it always has been, but the traditional Labour voter now in Glasgow, who will turn out come hell or high water, is more often than not, elderly. I don't personally know many young Labour supporters.
# Wee-Scamp 2012-05-04 22:50
Why is this page dated Weds 2nd May ??
# gfaetheblock 2012-05-04 23:02
Date of the webpage being created?

No, it's a grand conspiracy!
# KOF 2012-05-04 23:21
As gfaetheblock points out, the date the webpage was created. The reason why it has the results filled in is in the little box at the very bottom of the screen which says, "Last updated: 04 May 2012". ie after the election.

Eagle eyes indeed, but instead of a tasty hare it was just a fuzzy rock. :)

Keep them eyes peeled! I'm sure there'll be Unionist snacks out there somewhere.
# truth 2012-05-04 23:32
To be fair it does say last updated 4th May at the bottom of the page.

So I reckon it is simply the creation date as gfaetheblock suggested.
# art1001 2012-05-04 23:02
My personal canvasing was picking up 2 to 1 in favour of the SNP on the doorstep. I think we just did not our vote out and Labour's dirty tricks did the rest.
# tartanpigsy 2012-05-05 00:22
Where ?
# Angus 2012-05-04 23:15
Thanks Welsh Sion for your kind words and wishes. The sooner we get Independence, then probably sooner the Welsh will also determine their own future.
BBC news tonight put spin on Labour in Scotland, fekkin typical.
Glasgow isnt a disaster, the labour party gained 5 seats, the SNP gained 7.
Where I m from (N E Scotland) labour are non existant, imagine if they gained 7 seats here, it would be like the world has gone bonkers.
Well done the SNP.
# tartanpigsy 2012-05-04 23:38
O/T BBC News 24 00.30 bbc quote talking about the result in Glasgow
there could have been a 'proving once and for all' in there too, (allegedly)

" people prefer bread and butter issues to offers of Independence"

game, set and match my friends.

THAT is a BIASED comment

there was a lead line on an earlier 'election blast' where the reader sounded embarrassed talking about " Labour gains in England, Wales, 'and Scotland' "

you could here in his voice he knew he was very close to lying bare faced to the public. (allegedly) lol

it gets better agent Boris 'the sleeper',

boasting about the public money slopping around London as the most since Victorian times, no thought to the hypocrisy and then going on about NON Taxpayer funded nights out after, un f*n bl*bl, like he doesnt spend it but save it on his constituents behalf, hilarious,

People actually believe these complete cretins
# Edzell Blue 2012-05-05 00:01
Joe Fitzpatrick of the SNP states "I am pleased Angus and Dundee have delivered the first two majority administrations for the SNP", this fact is also stated on the BBC.
In 2003 Angus Council was an SNP majority council and I think this was the case going back to the Regional council change. The old Angus District Council was also SNP majority.
# Soixante-neuf 2012-05-05 01:24
They have been saying "the first two majority administrations for the SNP under STV" when I heard it. The voting system changed so much, anything else is just comparing apples and oranges.
# Big Eye 2012-05-05 00:47
The only explanation for Labour holding on in Glasgow is the sad fact that far to few people follow politics closely enough and can be influenced easily by biased media reporting, of which we have been in overload for a very long time, not a few weeks.

It is important that the SNP continue to promote a positive and visionary message but we need to also have a very direct and effective strategy to rebutt the lies and smears that dominate our media.

Finally there is no more true statement than "You cannot help people who have no desire to help themselves"
# Barontorc 2012-05-05 01:27
Never underestimate the power of the broadcast word or that which is printed in the pop press.

This is targeted at those who are but briefly observant and partly interested viewers and readers, of which, very few will dig into NNS. Any social scientist/observer, would classify those people who were pop-voxed from tonight's Canal Ward as being typical uninvolved, uninformed, excluded and by dint, fundamentally apathetic.

This can't go on.
# tartanpigsy 2012-05-05 02:25
"This can't go on."

All contributions welcome BT

demo end of the month :-)

feel free to get in touch

this demo belongs to all of us, and CAN

alter the way the whole debate moves on,

we cant wait for someone else to take the leap,
we are all revolutionaries now :)
# Robert Louis 2012-05-05 08:00
I wholly and absolutely agree bt.

Consider this, imagine you have no real in-depth interest in politics, but do always vote. Every single day, on your way to work, you pass a newsagent which has a billboard outside courtesy of the laughingly titled 'Scotsman' newspaper.

Every day, all you see, is 'salmond accused' or Salmond failed', or SNP 'disgrace'. Then at night when you get home, you catch just a few minutes of BBC distorting Scotland, but quickly turn over.

Your impression after a year, would easily be changed by such endless day-in, day-out propaganda, especially when you remember, that most people still think that the BBC is impartial and unbiased.

I tell you, this is NOT democracy, when we have a state broadcaster, whose management are appointed by the Prime minister, and funded from the Westminster Government. He who pays the piper, calls the tune.

The BBC is no better than propaganda, and the SNP needs to get to grips with the dirty filthy lies that are being repeated about them day, in day out unchallenged.

If a gross lie is told about them, they should not let the matter end. Ever. even when the unionistas and cyberbrits start their gratuitous 'faux' upset that such a thing is being said. the SNP should be resolute, and see it through.

In my opinion the SNP need to stop pussy footing around as regards the media. The BBC do them NO favours, so for a start they should simply refuse to participate in anything by the BBC. It cannot do any harm compared to the lies which are getting churned out right now. They do not need to make a statement about it, just politely decline to appear or participate, as they are 'busy'. Make sure they participate with every other broadcaster.

This needs tackled well before 2014. The day after the vote, you can be certain nobody will care two hoots if the SNP say the coverage was biased. Nobody, including me.
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-05 08:40
I agree Robert Louis. The SNP shouldn't bother making a big song and dance about it but should quietly withdraw all appearances on the BBC.

It does seem a bit naive to expect a fair hearing when you appear on the Broadcasting arm of the Labour Party.

I think they've given the BBC every chance to be even handed and the BBC have shown they simply don't accept or understand the term.

To them what they broadcast now is completely "even handed" and that is why the SNP should quietly walk away from them.
# Leswil 2012-05-05 10:19
Trouble with that, is the lies will still come AND we will have no chance of any reply to it at all.
I am,as most others are sick to the teeth with the "Unionist" media, that includes the BBC.
Suggest the BBC be called BBC Westminster. The "Scotsman" the "Unionist Times"
# scottishwatersnotforsale 2012-05-05 00:59
Actually,there was a young guy on the clip from ? Canal Ward (on Newsnight ) who hit the nail on the head. He said something along the lines of "theres no point,nothing will change ".In the area with the lowest turnout, it is the young ,with little choices who we somehow need to get the message across to.
I know in my area, it was noticeable which generation were voting and good on them for actually making the effort,even if it was for a party that ceased to exist long ago but we need to show there is alternatives and (hate to use the word ),engage with the younger vote.
# Big Eye 2012-05-05 01:19
People have been asking for suggestions on how best to combat the bias of the media and in particular the BBC.

The first step, a small one I admit, would be for everyone who supports Independence to stop calling the BBC ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE UK STATE BROADCASTER.

if everyone starls doing this in all correspondence and on all blogs then it will be noticed by others and people will want to know why this is their new title.

Of course Pravda is acceptable as well
# cardrossian 2012-05-05 06:12
In all the back slapping let us congratulate the 35 Independents elected to the Highland Council in the face of serious assaults by the SNP who are now under investigation in Caithness for financial irregularities regarding election expenses

And for those who think only Glasgow is the big place, please note that the Highland Council area of operations is larger than Wales
# SHANGHAI SCOT 2012-05-05 07:06
yes in area not in population
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-05 08:44
yeah big hand for the Tories! ( whoops sorry independents ).
# cardrossian 2012-05-05 10:38
Quoting GrassyKnollingt on:
yeah big hand for the Tories! ( whoops sorry independents ).

Somehow I don't think most of the independents would recognise that sort of remark which can only come from unreconstructed Labour regardless of how they are voting now. Anyone who doesn't vote SNP is automatically a Tory. Wake up son (or gal)
# Briggs 2012-05-05 19:12
In Orkney it's the Lib Dems and Tories in disguise.

I can't help but feel that those that who refuse to declare their true allegiances are being underhand.

Independents, in my eyes at least, are habitual liars and beneath contempt.

We, at least, had a couple of SNP candidates this year who unfortunately didn't manage to get in.
# derek 2012-05-05 06:33
Lets hear it! for the Penguin! the best result of the night. Brilliant stuff, what an absolute star.....pure quality in the Toon.
# Mei 2012-05-05 11:25
Pick up a Penguin !
# govanite 2012-05-05 06:51
These results are actually very good for the SNP, with increased support in almost every council.
But what to do about the labour citadels ?
I agree with Cardrossian above re the labour vote.
What those people want to see is attacks on the tories.
Having started as a labour voter myself, I now despise them for keeping people poor & angry.
However the SNP must not be seen to attack labour too much. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. More assaults on the tories via big-tent nationalism, with the Scottish interest first & foremost. Let labour oppose that.
# Marga B 2012-05-05 09:41
Govanite, wise words.
# scotsgal 2012-05-05 07:05
So how does this leave us with regards to Westminster as both the Conservatives and LibDems are a dying breed in Scotland? No change I guess, however this does indicate the need for change in Scotland, how can we persue policies that the Scottish electorate want if we are tied to policies South of the border.
# cardrossian 2012-05-05 10:39
By looking at what the SDA have to offer would be a good start
# Wave Machine 2012-05-05 07:25
Regarding Glasgow.

In Drumnadrochit I was speaking with a French tourist the other day and I asked him about the French election. Sarkozy or Hollande?
He made an interesting reply.

A bus takes 30 kids to school.
The driver is the only one who knows the route.
If you change the driver, one who doesn't know the route, you still have 30 kids who need to be taken to school.

I'll leave you to ponder the message.

Another note to consider is the London victory for Boris. He's a big personality and won through on the strength of this.
Glasgow requires a big personality to build a profile on behalf of the SNP.
Alternatively, the SNP may need to step back and allow another party, other than Labour to show through, perhaps the Greens or another socialist alternative. I think a dilution of the Labour vote is the answer, not a swamp by a single party.
# Aplinal 2012-05-05 08:13
A bus takes 30 kids to school.
The driver is the only one who knows the route.
If you change the driver, one who doesn't know the route, you still have 30 kids who need to be taken to school.

It wasn't Eric Cantona, was it? ;-)
# Robabody 2012-05-05 08:38
Or to quote another Frenchman WM "When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much." Eric Daniel Pierre Cantona.

Great soothsayers these French fella's
# Leswil 2012-05-05 07:31
Is it just me or do others think that the postal vote in Glasgow at 500,000 is worryingly high? Opinions please!
# Robert Louis 2012-05-05 07:40
Quoting Leswil:
Is it just me or do others think that the postal vote in Glasgow at 500,000 is worryingly high? Opinions please!

The postal voting system is corrupt to the core. It is easily manipulated, as we saw very clearly in Glenrothes. The fact it is still in its present corruptible form, beggars belief.

The electoral commission do nothing about it - which to me indicates they are not a fit and proper body to oversee the referendum.

I only hope that the referendum will not allow postal votes, as in such circumstances we can fully expect abuse on an industrial scale.
# Exile 2012-05-05 09:30
Given that the Scottish parliament has responsibility for local elections in Scotland, why have the SNP not sorted this? Or is the postal voting legislation separately reserved?
# Aplinal 2012-05-05 08:16
I think the postal vote is a worry, but to be clear the 500,000 figure was the number of requests for all the Scottish elections (AFAIK).

Not sure how many were in Glasgow itself, but an earlier poster mentioned 25% for Glasgow. If so, that' s anyway a high figure in a low turnout! Some clarity is needed before we jump to conclusions, but it is a concern for the future.
# Barontorc 2012-05-05 08:48
I share your fears regarding postal vote fraud, however, you can't be serious with that figure of 500,000? Glasgow City Council's voting population is less than 600,000 (592,820 - 2012).

Greater Glasgow Urban Area is 1.7m, but this doesn't relate to the Glasgow City Council vote stats - I don't think?!!

If this system is suspect - and it certainly is - there is no way that it can be permitted to influence the referendum vote.

The Scottish Government would be absolutely crazy to allow it.

It goes without further comment that the present Electoral Commission, which has overseen abuses with postal voting in the past and as suggested above, even in this recent ballot, should not be used to monitor the referendum process.

I also think it is time for a definitive and independent response to these allegations of postal fraud.
# UpSpake 2012-05-05 07:31
So we have lost the Lib Dems alongside the Conservatives leaving Scotland to the Labour party (Unionist) and the SNP (Independence). Stark choice.
Post elections, out will come all the corruption in Labour ranks in Glasgow, suppressed until after the election and out will come the corruption and complete incompetence of the Trams in Edinburgh along with the criminal corruption in its building department.
Had all this s**t hit the fan prior to the elections, the results could have been a whole lot different.
Agree with the posters above who suggest that the result in Glasgow was a bonus to the SNP who can stand aside and watch Labour implode.
On a wider issue, Scotland now has the referendum choice. Status quo with Labour or Independence with the SNP. Is that as the basis of a choice, too narrow a band ?.
# Ken Mac 2012-05-05 07:44
Just been checking around the papers. They all are reporting the incorrect BBC gain figures (I've dropped them a line about it)except one. So who got it right? Yes, the soaraway Sun. No doubt Lament will be screaming abuse at the next First Minister's questions. It's that Murdoch guy at it again.
# Aplinal 2012-05-05 08:17
I think STV are also showing the true figures.
# Legerwood 2012-05-05 09:43
The newspapers are using these figures and wherever possible i.e. on their on-line editions, people should be posting the true figures. Having said that I do wonder if the 48 gains for labour compared to 2007 should in fact be 46.

I noticed that the report in the Herald which contained the 57/58 SNP/Labour gains was carefully worded to avoid saying that these were direct comparison with the 2007 figures but still managed to give the impression that they were direct comparisons.
# mealer 2012-05-05 07:45
Onwards and upwards.Its not about getting Labour voters to abandon Labour and vote SNP.Its about persuading them to vote YES for a better future.And its going to take more than the SNP to do that.We will only win independence if we can motivate a huge number of people who hate all politics and politicians in equal measure to go and vote for Scotland.
# Robert Louis 2012-05-05 07:45
I simply state clearly and categorically, that the BBC London puppet broadcaster is going to have to be tackled prior to the referendum.

It is not fit for purpose. Yesterday, it was reported they were still running with the Labour lie about the Scottish Government not using Scottish steel for the new Forth crossing - when they and Labour both know that no such steel fabrication facilities exist in Scotland.

Make no mistake, in the run up to 2014, the BBC will be the Westminster weapon of choice. It's what the BBC is for.
# The Tree of Liberty 2012-05-05 09:43
Make no mistake, in the run up to 2014, the BBC will be the Westminster weapon of choice. It's what the BBC is for... Robert, you are correct and if you think the recent mudslinging was bad, wait until we get nearer the referendum. It will get dirty, very dirty. Better we grab the thistle now.
# Macart 2012-05-05 07:49
Six years in government, against the backdrop of the worst recession since the great depression. Operating in the teeth of the worst political smear campaign this side of the Atlantic and a blanket assault by the collective main stream media and the SNP have actually increased their number of council seats across the country.

Not too shabby folks.

Just think what could have been achieved in a country without such biased media. The hatchet job perpetrated by the media and the political opponents of independence in recent weeks has been nothing short of awsome in scale and yet here we are the day after the council elections with an increased vote share.

Its not the kind of resounding victory many would have wished, but its still a victory and a lot of folks on these threads are responsible for it. Every poster who went online and argued against the negative articles on almost every major news site and blog spot in the country deserves to hold their head that little bit higher today, because its down to all of you. They threw everything at us both in terms of media and direct political pressure and all they could do was slow us down a bit. Make no mistake their intention was to trash these elections and derail independence in the process. Well, they've taken their swing and we're still in the fight.

I repeat, not too shabby.
# Robert Louis 2012-05-05 08:09
Quoting Macart:
Six years in government, against the backdrop of the worst recession since the great depression. Operating in the teeth of the worst political smear campaign this side of the Atlantic and a blanket assault by the collective main stream media and the SNP have actually increased their number of council seats across the country.

Not too shabby folks.

Just think what could have been achieved in a country without such biased media. The hatchet job perpetrated by the media and the political opponents of independence in recent weeks has been nothing short of awsome in scale and yet here we are the day after the council elections with an increased vote share.

Its not the kind of resounding victory many would have wished, but its still a victory and a lot of folks on these threads are responsible for it. Every poster who went online and argued against the negative articles on almost every major news site and blog spot in the country deserves to hold their head that little bit higher today, because its down to all of you. They threw everything at us both in terms of media and direct political pressure and all they could do was slow us down a bit. Make no mistake their intention was to trash these elections and derail independence in the process. Well, they've taken their swing and we're still in the fight.

I repeat, not too shabby.

I actually agree. I think this is a very good result, and to be honest, I kept thinking people's expectations were high. The STV voting system makes outcomes harder to predict, but the overall picture is clear, the SNP won most councillors in Scotland, and increased its share of the vote by more than any other party.

Labour in Glasgow most certainly will implode. Give it a few months. There are a lot of VERY disgruntled ex Labour councillors. I'm sure they have a tale to tell.
# Leswil 2012-05-05 07:53
Reasonably good article from the SUN website -
# Robert Louis 2012-05-05 08:16
The fact that the Liberal Democrats lost out to a man dressed as a penguin, called 'professor Pongoo' in Edinburgh, speaks volumes of what people in Scotland think of Clegg

Who would want to be Willie Rennie today??

Answers on a postcard please.
# Macart 2012-05-05 08:22
Do the Libdems have enough geographical vote share to require the use of the postal service? :)
# Barontorc 2012-05-05 08:58
Does that political pillock Rennie even recognise himself when shaving of a morning. His absurd comments to smear AS since he fell into the non-job he got from that other waste of space Tavish Scott, show his political and moral immaturity.

It's one thing to look at a loser and think he's fighting against the current but honestly trying to make a fist of it and quite another to suffer absurd opportunism dressed up as fair comment.
# Caadfael 2012-05-05 10:26
Wonder if there'll be Penguin biscuits on offer at Bute House?
# Aplinal 2012-05-05 08:29
Agreed RL: shame about the turnout, but how much of that is also down to a negative media? If all most voters get to hear is negativity from ALL the media in Scotland, the positive message is hard to get through.

We, that is anyone who want a better Scotland, a nation in control of itself, need to continue to spread the optimistic message.

BUT ... the pro-independence political Parties need to find a better way to combat the MSM/UKBC bias. They need to be much more assertive from now on.

(ps. don't feed the troll, people)
# scottish_skier 2012-05-05 08:41
Of course people must remember that there are supporters of independence among all parties. For example, in the last MORI poll, those who are ready to say YES tomorrow:

71% of SNP voters
20% of others voters
18% of Labour voters
10% of Lib Dem voters
3% of Tory voters

Varies from poll to poll but YES votes from Labour voters will be crucial to winning the referendum....

Likewise for Devo Max:
89% of SNP voters
71% of others voters
65% of Labour voters
65% of Lib Dem voters
39% of Tory voters

The media may try to make out a decent Labour vote is an anti-independence/status-quoish vote. Far from it...a wish for major constitutional change is not limited to SNP voters.
# gfaetheblock 2012-05-05 09:51
Really interesting post SS.

The next question is whether the volume of pro-independence non SNP voters is greater than that pro-Union SNP voters?

Don't have the numbers to work this out, but an interesting view of the traditional notion of pro or anti independence parties.

Parties take a stance on issues, but voters vote for a wide range of reasons.
# Dowanhill 2012-05-05 08:48
I thought the hour long Newsnight Scotland programme was a disgrace. I often think when Curren and Davidson in the studio the SNP should put up Nicola Sturgeon. The take in the Scotsman is appalling also. But, we can learn from this and, so could Ian McWhirter! After all it was he, that gave a semi credibility to Murdoch reports after firstly, his radio rant and then his appearance on Newsnight Scotland. Add in the continuing bile of the Scotsman and the BBC and the format is set. All it took was a few votes for Labour to retain Glasgow and the symboilism of a countries drive for self determination is undermind, despite the fact the mid term result for a party that's been in power for 7 years at Hoyrood gained an additional 50+ councilors. This was an SNP victory regardless and we should be jubiliant. Glasgow is the last bastion of Labour and one city is not enough to determine independence. In time Glasgow will fall and to achieve this we must play down it's symbolism significance and let events take it's course.
# Aplinal 2012-05-05 09:51
And the irony is that all the polls indicate that Glasgow will vote YES at the referendum.
# neoloon 2012-05-05 08:56
Very happy with the result.If unionists and the unionist media wish to delude themselves into thinking it was a "victory" against the SNP then all the better.
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-05 08:56
RevStu summarises yesterdays very dodgy interpretation of the figures and asks

"When does spin become outright lying?"
# Seagetagrip 2012-05-05 09:06
Ian Bell in the Herald has coomented on the Edinburgh tram project. He credits the SNP with atleast trying to cancel the project in mid term. However he avoids any mention that the project was foisted on the unfortunate people of Edinburgh by the combined Unionist parties at Holyrood against the SNP Government who thought the money better spent on dualling the A9.
I have tried twice to post a comment to that effect without success. Maybe someone else would stand a better chance.
It makes it quite incomprehensibl e why Edinburgh should elect Labour as the largest party in the Edinburgh local election. Did we fail to make the point?
# Legerwood 2012-05-05 09:35
I think there is now a comment to that effect attached to the comments section of the article.

I would also suggest to people that they take every opportunity provided by on-line newspapers to comment on the actual gains of the SNP from 2007 to 2012. The 57/58 SNP/Labour figures are being widely quoted but are not based on a direct comparison of the two elections.
# Barontorc 2012-05-05 09:06
John Curtiss just made another ar** of himself on Radio Jockland 10 am news, by saying the SNP have failed to match their 2007 success.

Is it any wonder that such partial observation is held up as subjectively biased opinion?

Keep bleating it's all so bad - negative, negative, negative!

Any George Orwell-ists - please note, there could be the theme of a book running here!
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-05 09:18
Curtice is also in the Grauniad. Talking about how "it's not good news for the SNP" the "SNP bandwagon" and Salmond "cosying up to Murdoch". In fact all the unionist buzzwords and phrases ticked.

No wonder the beeb love him. If Scottish Labour are as he claims "back on their feet" it's because the media in Scotland has hauled them off the floor and is holding them up.
# Barbazenzero 2012-05-05 09:23
Orwell's been turning in his grave for some time -
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-05 09:26
ha ha, great photo.
# taimoshan 2012-05-05 09:16
Feeling a bit disappointed this morning particularly at the good people of Glasgow going to be subjected to 5 years of Labour trash. Looking around at the papers - all pretty negative except maybe the Sun (not a favourite) and slowly realized these papers and the rubbish BBC Scotland not only want to deceive me they want me to feel disappointed. Well, not any more - reading all the comment here and looking at the statistics I have realized that the SNP have actually done very well. We must find a way to combat the worthless print media and take the out of the BBC. I've banged a couple of letters off just now having a bit of a go at BBBC Scotland and pointing out the deception they have pulled re the "gains". I'm feeling a bit better now but unfortunately i've always been a "glass half full" type. Will try to get better!!
# GrassyKnollington 2012-05-05 09:39
Don't be downhearted taimoshan, the BBC are so insecure about the "fighback" that they've massaged the results.

Here's a Saturday morning question for everyone,

"Where does the BBC end and Labour begin?"
# Marga B 2012-05-05 09:59
Taimoshan, unlike you I woke up feeling suddenly optimistic - the temptation to give the Conservatives a bloody nose must have just been too great for many swithering, ex-Labour and even some SNP voters, who can blame them.

Suddenly all the triumphalism of the unionists rings hollow, it's on the back of a protest vote - yes, folks, voting Labour is now a protest vote in Scotland, think about it! There's no substance to it, but be forwarned, because it will be even stronger in 2014.

I think the best thing the SNP can do is raise an eyebrow and get on with it, and re-set the antenna as this result was entirely predictable, and the ground could have been prepared a bit better, maybe even siding with Labour on the anti-Con rhetoric etc. That bland campaign video, for example, and a serious lack of grip on some local candidates.

Engaging with the crowing unionists is a waste of breath. They have made no progress, and at heart they probably know it.
# the wallace 2012-05-05 09:34
Not a too bad election result,pity about glasgow though.Its time to forget about labour for a while,and for the snp and us to turn our fire on the beeb and the msm,simply for the reason that they are our nations freedoms biggest threat,and should be attacked relentlessly without mercy,for they shall show our potential independence no mercy in trying to kill it.We must be even more ruthless in defending our chance of liberty,so its time to start the attacks on our enemys biggest weapons system and to try and weaken it,and god willing even destroy it.SAOR ALBA EVERYONE.
# A_Scottish_Voice 2012-05-05 10:00
Agreed . Clearly many of us know that BBC Scotland is a front for Labour, and I am sure the SNP know this as well.

If the SNP only take one thing away from this election, it is that they need to take BBC Scotland head on.
# Macart 2012-05-05 10:39
Heh, way ahead Wallace. Spent some time on the Guardian site this week discussing this very problem of negative media spin. Got modded off twice for suggesting that if people were unhappy with the tone or bias of their newspaper coverage they should bin their subscriptions. Not rude language, not overly off topic, not abuse, but suggesting a course of action that newspaper publishers don't like. Needless to say the column in which this occurred belonged to one Severin Carrell. Who knew? :)
# Legerwood 2012-05-05 09:53
A John Curtice has an article in today's on-line Herald

If you want to comment particularly on the stats which he has carefully avoided giving in detail .
# Soixante-neuf 2012-05-05 21:03
Hours and hours ago I posted a comment. It hasn't appeared, although another comment has appeared since. Here's what they have rejected....

Let's see now. The UK-wide commentators, to a man, noted that the major losses posted by the Conservatives were not unexpected, because the party is mid-term in government. "Mid-term blues" was repeated again and again. So yes, they got a kicking, but that's par for the course, don't read too much into it.

Now, the SNP is also mid-term, in Holyrood. Mid-term in a second term of government in fact, which tends to be even worse news for polling returns. This in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s, and having to implement severe budgetary cuts. In this context the SNP's performance on Thursday was remarkable.

First place in terms of first-preference votes
First place in terms of number of councillors elected
First place in terms of change since the last (2007) election

The SNP increased its share of the vote, came first in a council election for the first time in terms of (first-preference) votes cast, and gained 61 councillors compared to its 2007 performance (likely to become 62 when the delayed Dunoon results are available).

Please, Prof Curtice, how do these figures support your headline?

Surely a professional psephologist must realise that comparing the 2012 local election votes directly with the 2011 Holyrood election is comparing apples with moon rocks. The electoral systems are entirely different (STV compared to d'Hondt). People were voting for a Scottish government in 2011, and local councils in 2012 (something commentators never tire of reminding us). And, most importantly, independent candidates didn't trouble the scorer in 2011, while they were a significant factor in 2012. Indeed, it would be interesting to subtract votes for independent councillors from the total and then work out the SNP's overall vote share on Thursday. Would that be so far below 2011, I wonder?

In 2007, which is the correct baseline for comparison, the SNP were the party of opposition, and in the council elections turned in their best-ever performance, winning in terms of councillor numbers and coming a close second in terms of first-preference votes. In 2012, after having been in government for five years, and "mid-term", they bettered that performance quite significantly.

If the Conservatives had achieved results in England even remotely comparable to what the SNP achieved in Scotland on Thursday, every pundit would be marvelling at their astonishing success. But when the SNP achieves such a result, it's being spun as a setback. This is quite bizarre.

The BBC have done something which is in my opinion dishonest. Instead of posting the correct figures for increases in councillor numbers, which are SNP +61 Labour +46, they have reported SNP +57 Labour +58, thus manufacturing an entirely spurious "victory" for Labour. They have done this by counting all seats which were won by Labour in 2007, in which the sitting councillor resigned the Labour whip in the weeks before the election due to being de-selected as a candidate for 2012, and where the new Labour candidate subsequently held the seat, as Labour "gains". This is quite extraordinary, and entirely contrary to any accepted way of dealing with election swings. One can only guess as to why they have done this.

The Scottish people deserve an even-handed, impartial appraisal of these election results. They are not getting it from the BBC, and not from academic commentators either it seems. To whom can they turn?
# Seagetagrip 2012-05-05 09:55

Many thanks! Also MacWhirter has said that he wondered if the spat over Alec Salmond and Murdoch played a part.....!!! In his case it was not for want of trying! I think somebody else sorted him though!
# Legerwood 2012-05-05 15:43
I think the Murdoch thing is a bit of a red herring in so far as all the Unionist parties and their leaders were deeply entangled with Murdoch and his journalists over a much longer period. Constantly trying to tar AS with the same brush has merely served to keep reminding the electorate of the culpability of the other parties in this matter.

Thus as a factot it was probably neutral or marginal in its impact.

Havingsaid that however I think the SNP is showing a worrying tendency to be slow off the mark in closing down these stories. They have to sharpen up their responses and not let these stories gain traction.
# Robert Louis 2012-05-05 10:01
Dianne Abbott of the Labour party has just been on BBC news, talking about how Ken Livingstone failed to get elected as London Mayor.

She put a large part of the blame on (I'm paraphrasing) 'There is only one local paper in London which was against Ken, ever ysingle day, that and their billboards would have a bad effect on any good candidate'

We are now entering a new phase of propaganda and lies in Scotland, where every main stream news source, including the BBC is basically spinning the line that the SNP have failed and Labour have done well.

This needs tackled BEFORE the referendum, not after.
# SCO 2012-05-05 10:43
the good news is everyone will have forgot about all the pro-labour spin in this election by 2014.

If the boot was on the other foot and the SNP were claiming a fightback with a 30% turnout you can gurantee labour would say it is not representitive.
# RTP 2012-05-05 10:02
What about this one in the mail.
"Bloody nose for Salmond" you would think the SNP have lost all the seats according to the anti press.

Highland council is the one I like not a single Tory voted in but I always say many of the Independents are closet Tory's
# Marga B 2012-05-05 10:07
Don't you think everyone especially the media themselves, is giving too much credence to the media and their role? All this Murdoch stuff and smearing - how much did normal people notice it?

Then MSM and their satellites are all attributing to themselves an influence that I just do not think they have - it was an anti-ConDem protest vote, for goodness sake!

If this Coallition government doesn't deserve a good kicking in the form of a protest vote, you would have to lose faith entirely in the value of the vote as the citizen's voice. Only thing is, SNP maybe could have got behind that voice on this occasion instead of furthering their own agenda.

People are rightly very threatened by the UK's neo-liberal turn, Westminster is still worryingly in charge even of Scotland, and the SNP should maybe think more about this.
# Aplinal 2012-05-05 12:35
Marga B: I don't think it is specifically anything that a single media outlet does that matters. BUT ... when you have a media background that is constantly preaching the same message from ALL sources - including the BBC, which many people DO think is still an objective source - then there is a subliminal message that there is "something wrong" with the SNP. It WILL influence some (many non-political?) voters.

Why does Coca Cola advertise, even though they are a world leader? It's the constant imaging and placement. Walk down the high street and in the newsstands you see the "SNP Accused ... " headlines. It's all subliminal, and it's worthy of a totalitarian state. USSR's Pravda would have been proud.
# derek 2012-05-05 10:08
"Highland council is the one I like not a single Tory voted in but I always say many of the Independents are closet Tory's"

Jeez! those closet Independent Tories are everywhere? LoL!
# cardrossian 2012-05-05 10:46
See my previous reply to grassyknollingt on. While there must be some ex-torys who now stand as independents, most are not. You can be self employed, and employer, a farmer, a banker, and many other things generally considered to be of the right without agreeing with or being a Tory. I would suggest that most Independents are more of the social democratic persuasion.

I would suggest that most are independent simply because like me they believe that party politics are detrimental to good local government
# jafurn 2012-05-05 10:56
Derek what is your take on the figures for the SNP and Labour re the gains for both parties?
Do you agree with the figure on the BBC website?


SNP 2 2 424 +57
LAB 4 2 394 +58

If you do can you explain to me why as there seems to be some confusion with regard to the accuracy of these numbers.
# Legerwood 2012-05-05 10:24
breakdown of the election results here

which will provide useful info for when you all go onto newspaper web sites etc. to comment on their articles about the elections. You are all going to do that aren't you?

If you want to redress the media imbalance and bias you must take evey opportunity to do so at source i.e on their comments or letter pages.
# border reiver 2012-05-05 10:26
Quoting border reiver:
See that Cameron has waited till today to report that the Government has been granted core participant status in the Levenson Enquiry. This is a terrible thing for democracy and the independence of the enquiry as it will give the government time to cover up and will intimidate witnesses if they think they will recieve hostile interogation. It will be interesting to see if the Rebecca Brookes e-mails are included in her testimony next Friday, allegegly they have been sending around twelve per day each to one another.

OOPS: I meant text messages not e-mails
# scottishwatersnotforsale 2012-05-05 10:34
No -'a Scottish voice',we need to tackle the BBC and make them aware .
It will be no use after the Referendum saying ah well the BBC etc when we have an opportunity to peacefully make our feelings clear.
# SCO 2012-05-05 10:36
A good result for the SNP.

However the party needs to learn lessons.

They overhyped progress in Glasgow gave the unionist media and Labour a reason to say they failed.

Watching Newsnight Scotland the SNP rep said "i have an exlusive", this excusive was from the SNP's maths of the results and not all the results were in.

Up until this year the SNP were basically a party that made no mistakes, however it seems like there is a reason for the unioist media to attck them on a weekly basis now.

While this is a good result for the SNP, Labour still hold double the councils the SNP do 4 - 2. though Labour have less votes overall, too close for comfort though at 30.

The result in 2011, i think made the SNP feel unstopable, this result is good in the respect that it will make them wake up and see 2014 is not a given, and they will need to work hard to persuade the undecided and possibly some no's to YES.
# 1876 2012-05-05 11:14
SNP in overall control at Hollyrood.
SNP have the most Scottish Councillors.
SNP membership is Scotland's largest.
SNP has largest vote share in Scotland.
SNP leader has best approval rating.
Something to build on or is it all downhill from here?
# Aplinal 2012-05-05 12:40
If we want our country back,then it has to be a start point, not an end point. Otherwise we can kiss goodbye to Scotland for at least a generation.
# Bonx 2012-05-05 11:28
Great result for SNP! Leave Laboour with full responsibility of Glasgow. Living in Glasgow i can see how they dont work for the city.
Would be intersting to check the local promises made by Labour, eradicate poverty, ill health in its 40+ tenure in Glasgow, and ask - Do you really need more time to fix this?

Full throttle with the Indy campaign now. I dont think we have seen on iota of how the anti-indy propoganda will throw at us.

Off topic - but everyone in Scotland shoudl read this - and use it to achieve Independence. Is there any Scottish person that thinks the same about him...
# doctor_zaius 2012-05-05 11:44
"The comedian Eddie Izzard tweeted that: "People like Boris like they like balloons." He's right, though I'm not sure he meant it as a compliment."
# balgayboy 2012-05-05 11:48
Quoting Bonx:
Great result for SNP! Leave Laboour with full responsibility of Glasgow. Living in Glasgow i can see how they dont work for the city.
Would be intersting to check the local promises made by Labour, eradicate poverty, ill health in its 40+ tenure in Glasgow, and ask - Do you really need more time to fix this?

Full throttle with the Indy campaign now. I dont think we have seen on iota of how the anti-indy propoganda will throw at us.

Off topic - but everyone in Scotland shoudl read this - and use it to achieve Independence. Is there any Scottish person that thinks the same about him...

Perish the thought of this buffoon ever being PM, World War 3 comes to mind. I think the SNP will have learnt a lot from the local elections, some misjudgements maybe or higher expectations, the bottom line is they have the largest number of local councillors despite being in government since 2007, an achievement in itself. The SNP are no fools and will have planned the upcoming Independence referendum or "battle" Every Independent minded person needs to help them, either physically or financially to make it happen. Roll on 2014
# ubinworryinmasheep 2012-05-05 11:31
I wonder if the last 2 weeks of smears had any effect on the voting public ? I'd advise all you folks with websites and facebook groups /accounts to post on FMQs and provide the link a bit more. If more normal people have a wee watch of FMQs and not an edited BBC version then more will realize what a waste of space the opposition are and possibly wake up to the prospect of a better future by voting SNP.
# Bonx 2012-05-05 11:48
We will never know if the smears had an effect. I think its more to gradually associate Salmond to wrong doing so it stick in the mind of the electorate.

You can bet come the next general election, the Beeb will heavily push Labour as contenders to win the election - and the plea will be for the Scots to help rid the Tories (once again).

Its all about keeping it positive though. And never damn the electorate for their voting choice - always remember, its up to them to be persuaded, you cannot label idiot to anyone just because they do not vote a certain way.
# bigbuachaille 2012-05-05 11:48
The positive message is getting more of an airing: Market Watch Hong Kong.
# westie7 2012-05-05 11:49
Sorry but I see a lot of folk on here kidding themselves!
And after yesterday too much complacency in the party!

Yes it was a good result for a governing party bu consider this!

I think we would all agree that in our areas the SNP were the candidates out doing all the door knocking and leg work. I know round here SNP were the ONLY ones out. Therefore we can only assume that paid off and gave the increase in councillors.

My fear is what if the "others" had put in the same leg work, then a higher turnout would only have gone to boost the unionist candidates.

We got lucky not because of all the hard graft by our councillors but because the turnout was low.

Until this has been "accepted" and realised and until someone comes up with Something to deal with the likes of Prof Curtice, James Cook on twitter, Gary Robertson and Glen Campbell then we WILL all be sitting at Christmas 2014 reminiscing on 1979 and bemoaning another stolen vote... I won't I'll be moving to the middle east

Harsh but we all have to get real and get fighting

Ps. Watch a whole bunch of anti-SNP coalition councils appear over the next few weeks, will make those two insignificant
# Bonx 2012-05-05 11:57
Exactly Westie7.

When you think how much effort the SNP has put in to get the kind of results it has in the last few years, then look to Labour, who, without having to do very much at all, are almost guaranteed that very loyal support on par with what the SNP works so hard to achieve. That is where complacency comes into play.

Obviously the serious media (or lack of) up here hinders us to an extent.

I believe these are the two areas to focus on. How can we grab hold of this loyal Labour support and what to do with the media!
# Dundonian West 2012-05-05 12:30
I SO agree with you on BOTH counts.
We have fought and won,despite the media/BBC.
That is a great achievement,'mid-term'.
The BBC remains,in Scotland, a partisan state broadcaster.
British Broadcastng Corporation.
Serious,but not insoluble.
# Barontorc 2012-05-05 12:00
westie7 & 1876 - According to the media, press, BBC and "experts" like John Curtiss - the SNP is almost in freefall!

The press we can personally deal with by not buying their trash masked as informative content - the BBC however, is another story as we're bound by law to pay a tax to watch any TV, even if we've no desire or intention to ever watch BBC productions on principle.

This must be an affront to our human rights in the UK and these are most affected in Scotland?

How does "BBC type" public broadcasting work in other countries throughout the world? Is it illegal to watch TV if a licence is not paid?

The BBC Charter is their standard, has it been abused and ignored in transmissions within Scotland?

The time is past coming when we, "joe public", should be getting organised to fund a legal challenge.

The fullest glare of a legal case will be reported by the media in other countries and should be well noted by european monitoring bodies.
# rog_rocks 2012-05-05 16:44

"we're bound by law to pay a tax to watch any TV"

Not any, if you watch TV on a demand player after it has been broadcast, using either a PC, a smart TV, a mobile phone or any other device, then it is free and a TV license is not required.

I suppose sometimes it can be a bit inconvenient waiting for it to appear on a demand player, especially for Scottish news or politics, another union dividend, however I would rather wait than fund this anti-Scottish rogue festered organisation.
# snowthistle 2012-05-05 12:03
Not sure we can extrapolate from one constituency. It was a hard fought campaign around here with all of the candidates out and about working hard for votes.
All of the SNP candidates were re-elected and some had large increases in their share of the votes.
We were out there but we certainly weren't alone.
# jafurn 2012-05-05 12:01
slightly O/T
Came across this on the Herald site and apologies if it has already been highlighted but I found it very interesting. The comments,althou gh only 2 in number (as of now) are also worth a read and I believe one of them is from a once regular poster on NNS who I haven't heard from for a while...
# balgayboy 2012-05-05 12:14
Barontorc: Yes, BBC Scotland are getting out of hand and are currently getting away with it. I'm certainly up for contributing to a legal challenge that at least would expose the impartiality of this publicly funded farce.
# Will C 2012-05-05 12:14
Thursday was a very good day for the SNP, however it could have been a lot better had the SNP and especially the First Minister been not been potrayed as the destroyers of the civilised world by the Unionist media. we have no chance of a YES vote in the referendum unless something is done to counterbalance the bias of the BBC and the rest of the media in Scotland. The attacks, smears and lies on Alex Salmond over the last few weeks were only a limbering up exercise for the Unionist side, the real dirty tricks will now come into play. If we are to achieve independence something must be done to counteract the onslaught of scare stories and lies which we are about to endure. The Unionist establishment will use every trick in the book (and then some) to stop Scotland from gaining her freedom. Unless we in the nationalist movement effectively counter the lies etc. the game is over before it starts. Something must be done and soon!
# Scotlandfirst 2012-05-05 14:51
Will C. If its any consolation, win or lose, after 2014 the UK will have changed. The momentum is on for change, be it independence or further powers within the UK. The choice in effect will be between the fast track to independence, or the slower track. Whichever is chosen the final outcome will be the same, an independent Scotland.
# Will C 2012-05-05 16:41
Sorry Scotlandfirst, but I am not so sure. The referendum is a once in a lifetime opportunity to free Scotland from Westminster. If we fail to achieve a YES vote, the independence movement could be set back for generations. If we lose, Sctland loses. The consequences of a NO vote would be disastrous for our nation.
# nchanter 2012-05-05 12:16
It is my hope that all those whom the people have elected will stop the bickering/point scoring, insulting and childish behaviour and focus on the job at hand. That they will recognize the importance of the workplace provided for them by those taxpayers that elected them and do the job expected of them. Or in other words I wish they would all grow up and act like we expect them to.
# Bonx 2012-05-05 12:23
Oh look - the Beeb have found a happy picture of Nicola Sturgeon! Pity that most people who read the news online regular will have seen the previosu picture on the report and will not re read and see the new pic.

Very subtle. But effective!
# cokynutjoe 2012-05-05 20:29
Had Labour been in the driving seat at Holyrood these last five years the outcome for Scotland's people would have been dire indeed. So why, despite the upbeat number crunching, have the SNP not swept the board. Edinburgh, Aberdeen & Glasgow have been a huge disappointment, a Labour party mired in corruption, with a horrendous track record in office, should have been ripe for the chop. Their current leader is a non-entity and their future all behind them.
I don't see much mention of the hostage to fortune of the Murdoch fiasco in these posts, there was bad judgement exercised here and we cannot afford the like ever happening again, Scotland's future is far too important.
Why did Labour win in Glasgow? certainlly not by brilliant campaigning, a world beating team or by standing on their record, and why the apathy in the bulk of the electorate.
No use blaming fiddling of the votes, the BBC, no TV in Dundee? or the Scotsman headlines, nobody in Glasgow reads the Scotsman. The Government should be storming ahead in these cities, people who have benefited hugely from this governments policies depressingly turn out to vote for Micky Mouse parties! answers have to be forthcoming.
# ramstam 2012-05-05 21:11
Cokynutjoe - Are you unaware that the SNP group in Edinburgh which increased from 12 in 2007 to 18 still has an excellent chance of doing a deal with the 6 Greens and other parties to form part of a ruling coalition in the city?
The same applies in Midlothian and East Lothian and several other Council areas.
Get the heid up man!!
# cokynutjoe 2012-05-05 21:20
ramstam, I've spent the last couple of days lambasting aquaintainces, with no more brains than a rabbit and who I know voted Labour and can't justify their actions. My Xmas caird list is probably in tatters. I'll calm doon eventually, but when folk vote coalitions are not really what what the Doctor ordered.
# Barontorc 2012-05-06 00:31
CJ - come the 2014 question - those you have been lambasting will be stuck on a YES or NO and to go for keeping the status quo will not even register on their sensitivity scale. The only vote they will make will be YES and by then Labour will be so exhausted by the UK crisis, that many Labour supporters will be voting YES, as will Greens, as will SSP and as will all those floating voters possessed of more than one brain cell.

Dinnae fash!

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